Gender-based Tolerance

[Jussi Marttila]

There's perhaps cause to say that Eowyn's actions mirror Aragorn's actions: he had promised to ride with Theoden and Eomer, but ends up going to the Paths of the Dead. Likewise, Eowyn chooses to ride into battle instead of remaining with the people at Dunharg.

[Stormcrow]

I'm deeply unsure if I agree with this. I'm not the Tolkien scholar a lot of people on this board are, but I'm not at all sure if Elven or Hobbit culture are meaningfully sexist (based on the evidence), for example. Both certainly have other issues, but I'm not at all clear sexism is one of them.

Please understand, by sexist I mean "appropriate behavior according to sex," not "discriminating against one sex."

We don't see a lot of it, because it is so normalized that it's not even mentioned. For instance, if a thousand elves go to war, you can bet Tolkien meant male elves. But he doesn't actually say that.

And given the number of people reaching beyond their station that work out rather well n Tolkien (Bilbo's whole arc in The Hobbit, Eowyn going with the army, Sam following Frodo, and even Aragorn's courtship of Arwen),

None of these are examples of people reaching beyond their station. Bilbo is at the top of his society; Eowyn is not being left behind because she is female even though she thinks that's why; Sam is Frodo's servant and is thus doing exactly what his station demands of him; and Elrond demands that Aragorn LIVE UP to his station before he can marry Arwen.

Eowyn coming along is, in many ways, portrayed as a good thing

Again, Eowyn's sneaking along isn't an example of her reaching beyond her station; it's an example of her not doing her duty because she wants glory. She's not left behind because she's a woman; she's left behind because she's in charge of those left behind. She wasn't left in charge of those left behind because she's a woman; she's left in charge because the people love and trust her, and Theoden had to choose somebody. It just so happens that he chose the person with pride issues, which makes it an interesting plot point worth writing about.

And also again, remember that while Eowyn's defeat of the Witch-king was a good thing, it didn't make her happy at all. She wasn't happy until she turned away from war. Eowyn's whole problem is one of pride, not gender, and it's only when she overcomes her pride that she has a happy ending.

[Stormcrow]

An example of a character reaching beyond his station: Beren, courting Luthien. And it turned out to be fairly disastrous. BUT, it is offset by Thingol's arrogance toward Beren, and the quest for the Silmaril is righteous on Beren's part. The completion of the quest turns Thingol's heart and finally gets him to consent to the marriage. And Beren was pretty high-born anyway.

[Glorelendil]

As I said earlier, Tolkien's cultures are all quietly sexist and classist. I mean this in a non-negative way.

Please understand, by sexist I mean "appropriate behavior according to sex," not "discriminating against one sex."

The First Rule of Holes: "When you're in one, stop digging."

[Deadmanwalking]

Please understand, by sexist I mean "appropriate behavior according to sex," not "discriminating against one sex."

We don't see a lot of it, because it is so normalized that it's not even mentioned. For instance, if a thousand elves go to war, you can bet Tolkien meant male elves. But he doesn't actually say that.

Why would I bet that? Female elves having some war skills is pretty canonical.

None of these are examples of people reaching beyond their station. Bilbo is at the top of his society; Eowyn is not being left behind because she is female even though she thinks that's why; Sam is Frodo's servant and is thus doing exactly what his station demands of him; and Elrond demands that Aragorn LIVE UP to his station before he can marry Arwen.

All a matter of perspective. I'd argue that leaving home to go adventuring is the definition of 'getting above oneself' in Hobbit society, Sam had to spy on and disobey Frodo to go with him, and Aragorn's situation can just as easily be seen as gaining station in order to be worthy. As for Eowyn...your point of view on what that's not exactly unchallenged.

Again, Eowyn's sneaking along isn't an example of her reaching beyond her station; it's an example of her not doing her duty because she wants glory. She's not left behind because she's a woman; she's left behind because she's in charge of those left behind. She wasn't left in charge of those left behind because she's a woman; she's left in charge because the people love and trust her, and Theoden had to choose somebody. It just so happens that he chose the person with pride issues, which makes it an interesting plot point worth writing about.

Again, this is all predicated on your argument that gender had nothing to do with her being left behind. Which is not universally accepted. At all.

And also again, remember that while Eowyn's defeat of the Witch-king was a good thing, it didn't make her happy at all. She wasn't happy until she turned away from war. Eowyn's whole problem is one of pride, not gender, and it's only when she overcomes her pride that she has a happy ending.

Characters can't have more than one issue now? The fact that going to war for glory is bad was definitely one message the author was going for, but one can easily argue he was also making a point regarding women being capable in combat, and something of a demonstration on why arguments against that are bad.

And I wouldn't call her issue with unhappiness 'pride', it's more about having gone to war seeking glory and having found out how unpleasant it was than arrogance in any traditional sense.

[DavetheLost]

The prophesy about the Witch-King was "not by the hand of man shall he fall".

The "No living man" was Peter Jackson. PJ was probably making the Shakespeare reference even more explicit. Macbeth,"No man born of woman shall kill Macbeth". Caesarian section is a loophole. "From my mother's womb untimely ripped" just as a Hobbit and a woman are not "the hand of man".

But, that being said, including any real world attribute in an RPG is always a dicey proposition. Know your players well before you go there. Some player groups will have no problem at all with a biased NPC, others will see it as an afront.

Certainly Sam is hardly the perfect servant. He spies on Frodo at least twice and gets rewarded for his cheek by getting to go with Frodo.

[Yusei]

The "No living man" was Peter Jackson.

No, the Witch-king says: ‘Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!’
To which Eowyn answers: ‘But no living man am I! You look upon a woman.

Peter Jackson changed it to "I am no man".