Generic Weapons & skill-based Edge/Injury

[DracoDruid]

Hey everyone!

I recently (re-)discoverd this great system & setting and - dabbler I am - couldn't help myself to think of some ways to tailor it to my needs.

One thing that I always look for in a RPG is a skill/character based combat effectiveness instead of a gear-based.
I prefer a system where the weapon of choice is more of a style question than a question of effectiveness.

So I took a look at the weapons list and thought, well, those aren't all that different...
Well, long story short, it boiled down to this:

Small Weapon: DAM 3 - ENC 1
(includes: Club, Dagger, Quarterstaff)
One-handed Weapon: DAM 5 - ENC 2
(includes: Axe, Bow, Mace, Pick, Spear, Sword)
Long-hafted Weapon: DAM 5 (1h) / 7 (2h) - ENC 3 - Can be used with one or two hands
(includes: Long axe, Long spear, Longsword, Mattock, War hammer)
Two-handed Weapon: DAM 9 - ENC 4 - Two-handed weapon
(includes: Bec de Corbin, Great axe, Great spear, Great sword, Maul)

Bow: DAM 5 - ENC 1+1 - Includes Quiver with 20 Arrows
(includes: Light Crossbow)
Longbow: DAM 7 - ENC 2+1 - Includes Quiver with 20 Arrows
(includes: Crossbow)
Great bow: DAM 9 - ENC 3+1 - Includes Quiver with 20 Arrows
(includes: Heavy Crossbow)


And for Edge/Injury:

Skill level 0: Edge G - Injury 14
Skill level 1: Edge G - Injury 16
Skill level 2: Edge 10 - Injury 16
Skill level 3: Edge 10 - Injury 18
Skill level 4: Edge 9 - Injury 18
Skill level 5: Edge 9 - Injury 20
Skill level 6: Edge 8 - Injury 20


Eager to here your thoughts and comments.
Especially if you see any design flaws (like the Edge/Injury ratings).

Cheers!

-- DD

[Glorelendil]

That's an interesting approach, making Edge/Injury depend on skill level.

But I don't think you need the changes as much as you may think. The statistical variation between the different weapons of the same "handedness" is actually quite minor. I've written software that has extensively tested the TOR combat system and the benefit of the different weapons mostly varies by adversary type. And even then, not by a whole lot. Skill level is still the biggest factor, followed by choice of Rewards/Virtues.

The one exception is Bow vs. Great Bow, for cultures than can choose either (just Woodmen?). Two points of Encumbrance is a minor penalty to pay for +2 damage and Injury. However, that can easily be addressed without house rules: impose a Moderate Hindrance penalty (-2) when using a Great Bow (or really any "Great" weapon) in dense woods or other confined spaces.

Also, the existing Edge/Injury system is designed to interact with Called Shot and Prepared Shot (and Stinging Arrow). Weapons that can make a Pierce on demand tend to have lower Injury ratings. If Injury correlates to skill, then heroes with Bows and Spears get to make high Injury Pierces whenever they want to. So I think those two weapons need to have lower Injury.

I agree with you in one regard: I like systems that let players choose weapons based entirely/mostly on flavor. And as far as I have been able to determine, in TOR you can do exactly that.

[Deadmanwalking]

Well at any stage of the game beyond the very beginning, this makes characters vastly more deadly. I mean, Edge 10, Injury 18 (at skill 3) is better than any listed one-handed weapon in the game, and Edge 9 Injury 18 (at skill 4) better than any weapon that exists.

Additionally, it makes two-handed weapons a lot less good as compared to one-handed ones, which seems a bad call to make (as IMO, shields already make that very true). And finally, from a realism perspective, it makes little sense for a greataxe and a dagger to have the same chance of wounding someone through armor. You also left out short swords (and, I suppose, other 1 Encumbrance weapons), and are throwing in a whole new category of bows (which seems unnecessary and unbalanced), and raise Bow Encumbrance to no real advantage to the bow as compared to, say, a default melee weapon.

So...yeah, I don't think this works well as presented. At least not without retooling all adversaries to compensate, and even then the game would get a lot more lethal, which is not a good thing, IMO. It also removes some (IMO, rather neat) distinctiveness from weapons, but that's clearly part of the intent, so I won't mention it again.

If I were doing this, I'd have stats more like the following:

Tiny Weapon: DAM 3 - ENC 0 - -2 Injury
(includes: Club, Short Sword, Quarterstaff)
Small Weapon: DAM 5 - ENC 1 - -2 Injury
(includes: Club, Short Sword, Hand Axe)
One-handed Weapon: DAM 5 - ENC 2
(includes: Axe, Bow, Mace, Pick, Spear, Sword)
Long-hafted Weapon: DAM 5 (1h) / 7 (2h) - ENC 3 - +0/+2 Injury - Can be used with one or two hands
(includes: Long axe, Long spear, Longsword, Mattock, War hammer)
Two-handed Weapon: DAM 9 - ENC 4 - +2 Injury - Two-handed weapon
(includes: Bec de Corbin, Great axe, Great spear, Great sword, Maul)

Bow: DAM 5 - ENC 0+1 - -2 Injury - Includes Quiver with 20 Arrows
(includes: Light Crossbow)
Longbow: DAM 7 - ENC 2+1 - Includes Quiver with 20 Arrows
(includes: Heavy Crossbow)

And for base Edge/Injury:

Skill level 0: Edge G - Injury 10
Skill level 1: Edge G - Injury 12
Skill level 2: Edge G - Injury 14
Skill level 3: Edge 10 - Injury 14
Skill level 4: Edge 10 - Injury 16
Skill level 5: Edge 9 - Injury 16
Skill level 6: Edge 9 - Injury 18

You could also go with Skill 5 resulting in Edge 10, Injury 18 instead if that appeals more.

Those stats still get better than baseline stats, but only at Skill 5-6 and not by very much. They also are actually worse at skill 0-1, which seems appropriate. And slightly worse at 2-3, which is perhaps unfortunate, but necessary to avoid things getting really out-of-hand later.

Alternatively, you could stick with the stats you've got on Edge and Injury (though I'd still have weapons effect it as I suggest above...maybe drop all Injury ratings by 2 to accommodate that), but not allow the Keen or Fell Rewards (though replacing them with something is a good idea in that case...no idea what with), since that'd keep the power level much more consistent.

Glorelendil is also entirely correct on the whole Called Shots/Automatic Pierces thing. You're gonna want to do something about that if using this. No idea what, maybe just a flat -2 Injury when making Called Shots?

Oooh, one additional question:

Have you tried playing with the system as-is? As Glorelendil notes, weapon choice isn't that big a deal already (I personally think they feel different...but mechanically? Nah, nothing too big)...and the system works really well as presented in most ways. I mean, don't get me wrong, I tinker with systems all the time, but this kind of sweeping change should probably be made after seeing the original version in use.

[DracoDruid]

Hey!

First: thank you two for the very mature and constructive critics. It's a refreshing change considering some other boards...

Second, you are right that I tend (and sometimes like) to tinker more than I actually play, but to my disappointment, I have neither a lot of time nor the right people ATM, to play a lot (or even a little).
And though I have a lot of gaming experience, I really am happy to build on your playing experiences here, if you'll have me...

If you guys are still with me:

About Edge/Injury
I thought they might be a little to good.
And I see your point about the two-handed weapons. Including an Injury-modifier might be a good idea. Thanks.
I actually thought about letting the player decide how to increase his E/I:
For every skill point either +1 Edge or +2 Injury. But that probably results in all-out Injury and a lot of Called Shots, I guess (especially with my alteration below)?

EDIT:
I just re-read your comment about the sense of an axe and a dagger having the same chance of penetrating armour, I my thought was: "Well in the end it's about finding the weak points, so the more skilled you are, the better your chances, but sure, an unskilled fighter would have more chances with an axe than a dagger.."
And there it hit me.
Maybe I was going at this the wrong way round?
Maybe the weapons should have the basic Injury ratings, and the skill would give the Injury modifier?
Or is that just "semantics" in the end? ...


About Called Shots:
Actually, I already tampered with the Called Shots too, but didn't want to put that up here already.
A good thing though, since that would have probably created the outcry I was prepared for.

The thing is, linking Called Shots to the weapon types rubbed me the wrong way too, so I thought about just letting the player decide which effect he wants to achieve.
But giving no regulation probably results in a lots of called piercing blows (which might not be SO dangerous since Injury is based on skill).
But what about something like this:

Great Success
Shield bashed
Weapon dropped
Helmet lost (no Fatigue recovery)

Extraordinary Success
Piercing blow
enemy made weary for 1 round (or until forgoing an action?)
enemy tripped

[Deadmanwalking]

Hey!

First: thank you two for the very mature and constructive critics. It's a refreshing change considering some other boards...

You're very welcome, and thanks for the compliment, I try.

Second, you are right that I tend (and sometimes like) to tinker more than I actually play, but to my disappointment, I have neither a lot of time nor the right people ATM, to play a lot (or even a little).

I sympathize. I've sometimes gone years without getting to play a particular game I enjoyed due to various issues.

And though I have a lot of gaming experience, I really am happy to build on your playing experiences here, if you'll have me...

Well, I'm pretty sure people will, though being relatively new to the forum here I can't say for sure...

If you guys are still with me:

About Edge/Injury
I thought they might be a little to good.
And I see your point about the two-handed weapons. Including an Injury-modifier might be a good idea. Thanks.

Again, you're quite welcome.

I actually thought about letting the player decide how to increase his E/I:
For every skill point either +1 Edge or +2 Injury. But that probably results in all-out Injury and a lot of Called Shots, I guess (especially with my alteration below)?

Yeah, that'd be the basic problem there.

EDIT:
I just re-read your comment about the sense of an axe and a dagger having the same chance of penetrating armour, I my thought was: "Well in the end it's about finding the weak points, so the more skilled you are, the better your chances, but sure, an unskilled fighter would have more chances with an axe than a dagger.."
And there it hit me.
Maybe I was going at this the wrong way round?
Maybe the weapons should have the basic Injury ratings, and the skill would give the Injury modifier?

That'd certainly work. And be interesting. though you need to give different Edge ratings if giving different Injury ratings for different weapons in the same 'weight class', or whichever has the highest Injury is just superior. And if sticking with the same Injury rating for all weapons in the same class, the difference is mainly cosmetic between that and what you've got right now.

About Called Shots:
Actually, I already tampered with the Called Shots too, but didn't want to put that up here already.
A good thing though, since that would have probably created the outcry I was prepared for.

The thing is, linking Called Shots to the weapon types rubbed me the wrong way too, so I thought about just letting the player decide which effect he wants to achieve.
But giving no regulation probably results in a lots of called piercing blows (which might not be SO dangerous since Injury is based on skill).

Well, Called shots are already a better idea the higher your skill...so I think that might actually make them more likely (at high skill ratings anyway).

But what about something like this:

Great Success
Shield bashed
Weapon dropped
Helmet lost (no Fatigue recovery)

Extraordinary Success
Piercing blow
enemy made weary for 1 round (or until forgoing an action?)
enemy tripped

Seems workable in broad outlines, though there aren't really rules for being tripped at the moment...

[Glorelendil]

You can convert XP into one of three things:
- Weapon Skill
- Valour (and thus Rewards or Qualities)
- Wisdom (and thus Virtues or Masteries)

If you spend XP on weapon skill you get to roll more dice, increasing both your chance to hit and your chance to do extra damage via Tengwars. If you spend it on Valour you can reduce your Edge and/or increase your Injury.

So currently you can do everything you are proposing by spending XP. You just can't do it all at once. You are proposing getting all three of those things (more dice, higher injury, lower edge) from one XP expenditure.

So unless you dramatically increased the value of combat-related rewards and virtues (or, really, all rewards and virtues) it would heavily skew player decisions toward increasing weapon skill before anything else. Or you could increase the cost of weapon skill relative to valour/wisdom, but that is both making the game more complex and making it much harder for characters to increase their basic hit rate.

And either way, that 3rd point of weapon skill by far the best use of background XP during character creation.

TOR is the most elegant RPG I've ever played or even read, and one reason for that is the way all the pieces are interconnected. If you change one thing, it affects many other pieces.

Like you, I have fun twiddling with game design, but I really believe the direction you are taking is equivalent to ripping out the foundation blocks of the game. You may as well just start from scratch and design a new one.

[DracoDruid]

Thanks for the clear words.
I see now, that basing Edge/Injury on skill might be not a good idea.
So I will drop that part and concentrate on the Generic Weapons:

Small Weapon: DAM 3 - Injury 12 - ENC 0
(represents: Knuckleduster, Sap, Dagger)
Short Weapon: DAM 5 - Injury 14 - ENC 1
(represents: Club, Short Sword, Hatchet, Staff)
One-handed Weapon: DAM 5 - Injury 16 - ENC 2
(represents: Axe, Mace, Spear, Sword)
Long-hafted Weapon: DAM 5 (1h) / 7 (2h) - Injury 16 (1h) / 18 (2h) - ENC 3 - Can be used with one or two hands
(represents: Long axe, Long spear, Longsword, War hammer)
Two-handed Weapon: DAM 9 - Injury 18 - ENC 4 - Two-handed weapon
(represents: Great axe, Great spear, Great sword, Maul)

Fast Ranged Weapon: DAM 5 - Injury 14 - ENC 1 - Includes Quiver with 20 Arrows - Needs only one ally in melee
(represents: Bow, Crossbow)
Strong Ranged Weapon: DAM 7 - Injury 16 - ENC 3 - Includes Quiver with 20 Arrows - Needs two allies in melee
(represents: Great bow, Heavy crossbow)

BASIC QUALITIES
Every weapon has one of the following basic qualities. Any weapon can have any one of these (i.e. spears don't have to be precise)
Simple: Edge 9 - Injury -2 - Called Shot: Shield smashed
Balanced: Edge 10 - Injury 0 - Called Shot: Weapon dropped
Precise: Edge G - Injury +2 - Called Shot: Automatic Piercing attack
(This makes crushing weapons good for unskilled characters and precise weapons ideal for skilled ones - and I know of the high-injury+auto-Pierce "problematic")

WEAPON GROUP SKILLS
The following weapon group skills are used:
Brawling: Brawling, Dagger, Sap, Knuckleduster
Axes: Hatchet, Axe, Long axe, Great axe
Bows: Bow, Crossbow, Great bow, Heavy Crossbow
Hammers: Club, Mace, War hammer, Maul
Spears: Staff, Spear, Long spear, Great spear
Swords: Short sword, Sword, Long sword, Great sword


OPTIONAL: CALLED SHOTS BY SUCCESS
With this option, called shot effects are not linked to the weapon type used. Instead the character announces the effect to produce and must achieve a corresponding success:

Great Success
Shield smashed
Helmet lost (no fatigue recovery)
Weapon dropped

Extraordinary Success
Automatic Piercing attack
Target weary until forgoing an action to recover
Target tripped (-3 attack & parry - must forgo an action to recover)

[Deadmanwalking]

Combining high Injury with having a Called Shot that Pierces is a terrible idea, especially with bad Edge. There's a reason why only low Injury weapons have that as an option.

You should switch the Called Shots of 'Simple' and 'Precise' and likely rename them. The Edge 9, -2 Injury version could then be 'Precise' while the Edge G, +2 Injury one could be 'Vicious' or 'Mighty' or some such.

Other than that, looks good. Very good, in fact.

[DracoDruid]

I know *InsertWhinyNoiseHere*
But having weapons with high injury and low edge and that allow skilled fighters to overcome that limitation makes so much sense...

But I know. Game balance is more important that sense.. so I'll change that.

On the other hand,
what about the optional rule instead?
To powerful too?

[Deadmanwalking]

I dunno about game balance trumping common sense universally...but having particularly brutal weapons (ie: high Injury) also be the ones to Break Shields also makes a fair amount of sense, as does having low-Edge weapons be the ones you can pierce with at will (since it's easier with them) and when common sense can make both options reasonable game balance is definitely the tie-breaker.

And yeah, I think the optional rule would work okay. Getting an extraordinary success is enough harder than getting a great success to make that work out just fine.