Monster Combat House Rules

[Rocmistro]

The fellowship of the ring...9 warriors...at least 5 of which were seasoned warriors, 1 of which was an angel and the other 4 of which were royalty...just barely managed to take down a Cave Troll in moria.

EDIT: Bah. My mind is sullied by PJ's movie. They didn't fight a cave troll in Moria (the real story). That's right..they RAN from the cave troll...and the bunch of Orcs that were with it.

In fact, we do have any reference to 3rd age heroes standing toe to toe against Trolls in the books?

[Michebugio]

I have a thought/question.

I had reached a similar conclusion of doom when it came to "big baddies". Is it possible that heroes are simply not intended to engage such creatures in a stand-up fight until they are at the very top of their game?

In other words, maybe it's working as intended...

I don't know. It's probably working as intended, but the problem is that even a hero who is at the "very top" of his game simply can't take such a level of punishment.

In TOR, characters develop a lot offensively, and only slightly defensively. Parry and Endurance values stay practically the same at all levels of experience, except in rare cases. The only difference is that you'll stay more often in Defensive stance, while still hitting your opponent. But against the "big baddies" there isn't much difference between a fully armored dwarf in Defensive stance and a naked hobbit in Forward stance: in the best case, the dwarf can take one, maybe two more blows than the hobbit, but that's it.

Of course, you have some other options to deal with such foes: use Knockback while the other companions flank the beast, make them Weary, disarm them (if they wield weapons: good luck against Mountain Trolls), or forget about defensive strategies and butcher them as fast as possible in Forward stance (who cares, they would still hit you if you were in Defensive stance). But there's no way that you can simply "tank" them.

By the RAW, I observed that against big, powerful creatures, battles tend to be fast, brutal and quite random-driven. Players know they'll get a brutal beating one way or the other against such opponents, so they either get frustrated and forget about tactics, or they will simply try to avoid such confrontations in any case. But that's just my experience.

[Rocmistro]

But is this a bad thing Mich? More to the point, does it make the game feel more Tolkien or less?

I love D&D...but the fact of the matter is, just about any human being (or Dwarf, Elf or Hobbit as I am currently led to understand their physiology), that gets hit by the attack of say, something with the mass of a mountain troll, is going to be reduced to pulp. I think this perception of the mechanics of Tolkien's universe is on par with how he wanted his world to function.

Hero's "tanking" large brutes like Trolls and such..just doesn't happen in Middle-earth. At least, not in the 3rd age. If you're going to kill a Troll, you are going to have to ambush it and kill it quickly. There is no 'standing toe to toe' with one.

I think this is what the designers intended, and insomuch as this is true, I think the game achieves that and it reflects what Tolkien would have to say about it.

As always, if you want to go a different direction with it, have at it, but know you are straying from the path. And remember what the Elves told Baldor in Tales from Wilderland. Don't leave the path!

[Rocmistro]

Hey Mich, I just realized my previous posts seemed very not generous and probably didn't address the original point.

I think both of your proposed rules are interesting. The Eye/Gandy auto thing is good, I think, but has the drawbacks/repercussions already noted by Glorelendil.

I like your damage spread idea. It will absolutely do what you intend, although I'm trying to think if there is any other circumstances which might be muddied by the new execution. (ie, ways to deal Troll damage that aren't as clear in how they are applied).

In the spirit of the game, though, I'd like to suggest that 2 alternatives to hero-reaction to trolls be properly submitted in your Loremastering, as reflected by what we actually saw happen with Trolls in Tolkien's Middle-earth.

1. Run away from them.
2. Engage them in Riddle/Conversation to fool/delay/trick them.

In other words, if you're going to have Trolls in your adventures, players should be able to run from them, or trick them, in addition to fighting them. *That*, I think will get you closer to producing a story that looks more like a chapter from the Hobbit, and less like a D&D encounter. Assuming that interests you.

[Falenthal]

In fact, we do have any reference to 3rd age heroes standing toe to toe against Trolls in the books?

Yes, Pippin at the Black Gate slayed a Hill-troll Chieftain single handed, with just a númenorean dagger.

At Pippin’s side Beregond was stunned and overborne, and he fell; and the great troll-chief that smote him down bent over him, reaching out a clutching claw; for these fell creatures would bite the throats of those that they threw down.Then Pippin stabbed upwards, and the written blade of Westernesse pierced through the hide and went deep into the vitals of the troll, and his black blood came gushing out. He toppled forward and came crashing down like a falling rock, burying those beneath him. Blackness and stench and crushing pain came upon Pippin, and his mind fell away into a great darkness.

I guess he used his last Hope point to score a Piercing blow, though.

[Glorelendil]

One option for Trolls would be to represent their dull-witted nature by displaying poor tactical choices. I.e., changing targets after bashing somebody, not chasing those who Escape Combat or are fighting from Rearward, etc. That would have the effect (especially combined with tactical decisions on the part of the players) to distribute the damage, without changing RAW.

[Rocmistro]

Does that require a hard-code to the Troll entry, Glorelendil, or just a Loremaster to be cognizant of that?

[Glorelendil]

Just LM discretion, for those who want to make things a little easier.

[poosticks7]

Just some random ramblings:

If the PCs have an idea and a little prep time they can fight the troll in favourable conditions - tight quarters, low ceiling etc and get a bonus to parry.

If they are caught on the hop by a large troll, they should consider legging it (worked for the Fellowship).

As a general rule of thumb I have trolls wallop the PC that hurts it most in the last round.

I've always maintained that taking down a Mountain Troll would be an epic feat and that the heroes likely need a few red shirts to help them out.

[Corvo]

Just for the sake of conversation (ie, not trying to convince anyone)...
someone is familiar with the system of The Riddle of Steel or the newer Blades of the Iron Throne?

In a nugget, the key of these system is that, in a single round, you either attack, or defend. Not both.
Who got the initiative dclares first if attacking and defending, and in the event of a mutual attack, his attack connect first.
Whoever rolled highest in the attack or defense roll, got the initiative in the next round.

I use this system, and I found it models the combats against Trolls in very convincing way: the Troll concede initiative, then he declares an attack on whoever declared an attack on him, so the result is a reciprocal automatic hit. Nobody can exchange hits this way with a Troll.