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Halbarad wrote:@Roc , I'm going to go with Falenthal's attribute array.

A few more thoughts on the Rewards.

Cultural Blessing - Bloody Minded

When making a Valour or Wisdom Test, or on a roll to use any Common Skill, the character may accept a Shadow Point to make any roll of 'the Eye of Sauron' on the Feat Die an Automatic Success.

Not enough?

Ok, so I like the theme you presented earlier (about being stubborn) and the way this works. It's basically a big middle finger to Sauron every time the Shadow tries to screw them over. It works a little bit like Stiff Neck in that it almost makes the Dunlending want to dance with the devil a little bit. So I like it because that seems appropriate for a 'semi-fallen' culture. Of course, it's clear by your wording that you don't want it to apply to weapon rolls, which is fine...but..."Bloody Minded" seems the wrong name for it since it has nothing to do with bleeding. That's a minor quibble of course.

Halbarad wrote: Belly Spear -

This is 'loosely' based on the Gae Bolga, legendary spear of Cuchulain from Irish legend.
For TOR purposes it's a Greatspear with an elongated and barbed head. The idea is that the barbs rip any wound open further upon withdrawal and do extra damage to the victim. It is, as Rocco put it, a big game hunter's weapon.
I reckon that it should fuction as a normal greatspear until a wound is scored and the victim fails the protection roll. Then I'm considering that the endurance damage for the attack should be based on the Favoured Body attribute score, representing the spear being ripped out. Thoughts?

zedturtle wrote: Hmm. Let's think of an elegant way to say this and manage it as well. How about "On a Gandalf result, any additional damage is based on you Favoured Body score". That requires both the Gandalf and the Great/Extraordinary, but not the Wound.

Zed, the only thing about your ruling is that it does not assume a piercing blow is actually achieved. I think Halbarad really wants a wound to be scored to trigger any secondary effects, as it models the (rather painful) idea of ripping the barbs out.

That being said...gotta be careful with Great Spear. It's, possibly, for those who can wield and spare the encumbrance, the best melee weapon in the game. So tacking on any secondary affects to a Damage 11, Edge 8, Injury 18 weapon has to be really careful. I'm going to guess any cultural reward with a wound trigger effect is going to see Edge and Injury pumped, and damage disregarded, so....given the inherent cruelty of the weapon, and to keep game balance, I'm wondering if whatever the affect is, that the hero has to accept a pt. of shadow. Again, this seems to be in keeping with the Dunlendings sort of 'fallen' status.

Halbarad wrote: Iron Torc - I like what you've got there Rocco.

Cool.

Halbarad wrote: Bodhrán - I really like this as well, but I don't think we should actually call it a Bodhrán though. These guys are Dunlendings, not Gaels. (That's why I went for Belly Spear instead of Gae Bolga) I wonder if we might assign a bonus to the Song skill for non combat environments as well? Too much?

I'll leave the naming up to you. At some point, culture specific names for things don't port well to Middle-earth, but I'm not versed enough in language or history to know when exactly that is. Certainly there are no flamberges or claymores in Middle-earth, but Tolkien did mention hauberks and corselets which have a decidedly French connotation.

Can you give me a better idea of what you mean by assigning a song skill bonus for non-combat environments? I assume you mean travelling? So something like...marching to the beat of a drum kind of thing? I'm ok with that, but you ought to be careful....2x Honey Cakes is awesome by itself, so anything that gives even more of a group travel bonus should be heavily scrutinized. Hrm...now that I think about it, maybe the bonus it should give it to mitigate TNs and/or shadow gain by travelling through corrupted lands?

@Zed

Thanks for your input mate. You are very welcome to join in.

@Roc

We've been in correspondence for so long now that I often forget you are from the other side of the pond.

Bloody Minded is a term used in UK/Ireland to describe a person who is stubborn to the point of being intractable and who often disagrees with something for the sake of argument. It's got nothing to do with actual bleeding.

@Zed and Rocco.

With the Belly Spear, I was considering that the special effect would only kick in if the attack rolled the Weapon's edge and the victim failed it's Protection roll.

@Rocco
I see what you mean about the inherent cruelty of such a weapon. It actually seems a bit too much like a weapon of the enemy. Hmmm...will have to think a bit about whether to use it now.

Regarding the drum. I was actuually thinking more about it's use during Social Encounters, when music would be appropriate and perhaps when used alongside a Song Task to dispel Shadow Points.

Regarding the Belly Spear, the reason I suggested that was two-fold: 1) to cut down on the graphic imagery and 2) to allow a benefit for rolling Gandalf + Great/Extraordinary without a successful wound (which will happen quite often). The differential in damage (+3/+6, best case) seems to me to be in line with what other Rewards potentially produce. You could also tamp it down by requiring a point of Hope to be expended.

I like the idea that Dunlendings are prone to and attracted to the Shadow, whilst fearful of it as well. Straying a bit from the ideas Hal posted above, how about something like this:

Fell and Ancient Songs
...he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue.

When your companions fail a Corruption Test, you may sing old songs of loss and grief to ease their fears. Make a Song Test against the same TN of the Corruption Test. A simple success prevents one point of Shadow gain for one of your companions. A great success prevent two points, an extraordinary prevents three points in total. These may be spread amongst your companions or given to a single person. In any case, your Shadow score increases by one.

- - - -

Let me know what y'all think...

@Zed

Re: The Belly Spear, I wouldn't have been quite so graphic in the final description. Overtly graphic descriptions of violence aren't really appropriate for this game IMO.

I like the idea of the ancient songs as well. What about 'Rhymes of Yore' as a name though?

I like the ideas you're tinkering with a lot, specially the drum and the torque.

I'm not that good at finding mechanical effects to my ideas, but I'd like to share some concepts I have about the dunledings that you might take into consideration if you like them.

Being descendants and related to the Woses, I like to think of them as having a sort of shamanistic religion/caste, related with the spirits and even the undead. It's usual in most cultures that those things that are most scary are also the ones that require most social structures to understand them, give a sense of control over them, and to try to keep them at bay.

That said, it could be a nice idea to look for mechanics in the game that separate the dunledings characters in Warrior-caste and Wise-men/women. My initial idea would be to make Rewards dependent on Valour ("you get a bonus equal to your Valour to X") and Virtues on Wisdom (for example "Warpaint: As long as your paintings are visible (wearing no armor), you get half your Wisdom (rounding up) dice of armour for Protection tests"). That way, the best warriors will try specialize and improve their Valour rank, and the same will be true for Shamans/Wise-men/Speakers with the Dead/Whatever, creating a sense of specialized castes.

Of course, heroes are special and they have the chance to mix both abilities, but it will not be the usual configuration in a clan: warriors are warriors and brave (but they fear elves, magic, undead,...) and wise-men don't go into battle, but are looked for help with charms of protection against ghosts, warpaints to turn warriors into "holy warriors" protected by the spirits of the ancestors, or to travel into "tainted lands" (Eregion, for example) looking for a sign to guide the clan. Also Virtues like reading the entrails of animals could apply to dunledings.

That attachment to the ancestors and the ghosts (and fear of them) could be a reason behind their hate for the rohirrim: the ancient tombs of the dunledings lie now in the lands of Rohan, and the dunledings might have a self-impossed duty to take care of those tombs. Otherwise, their ancestors will become angry and bitter at them, like children who are ungrateful to their parents. In this light, the rohir would be seen as brutal people who don't allow the dunledings to take care of their deceased, and honour the fallen among their people. This could even be a plot for an adventure, where heroes have to investigate recent attacks by dunledings to a seemingly unimportant fortification in the Westmarch. The heroes can discover that the fortification was build over the tombs of a dunleding clan, who is affected by a plague (or some bad luck, or no kids are growing, or some other ill omen) and think the cause is that their ancestors are angry at them for letting the horse-men trample on their graves with their horses.

Another "pattern" I think I see in your thoughts about Rewards and Blessings is very interesting and original:
Dunledings don't spend Hope to use their special abilities, they gain Shadow.
Until now, the heroic cultures were all about Hope. Shadow was mainly gained by the corruption of the world (undead, tainted treasure, blighted lands), but at least in my games misdeeds and bad behaviour is scarce. Heroes from the Free People are Good natured in their heart, it's the world that makes them fall into the Shadow.
But dunledings are something different, they're the "grey area" between the pure elves and the dark orcs. Not inherently evil, but more prone to it than others. This way, their inner strenght wouldn't come from spending Hope, but from meddling with their fears and embracing them (remember: attachment to the dead because they fear them). Shadow, and not Hope, would be their way of fueling their abilities.
Mechanichally it should be revised very carefully: Hope is very difficult to recover, but Shadow isn't. Bonuses to Song (as for the drum Reward you were talking about) are then justified because it is a Culture that needs this things (like the High Elves do), but they can't be too powerful or they'll erase all Shadow in a single Fellowship Undertaking.
Out of my head, I think that dunledings should be forbidden to Open Sanctuaries outside their lands. That would limit the Heal Corruption Undertaking. In fact, it could be explained as only other dunledings understand the rituals needed to speak with the ancestors that help a dunleding be at ease with himself. Also, they probably need to be near the tombs of said ancestors to communicate with them (another reason why they *really need* the lands the rohir stole from them).

I'll leave it her for now. Sorry for the long post and the many rumblings

Falenthal wrote:Being descendants and related to the Woses, I like to think of them as having a sort of shamanistic religion/caste, related with the spirits and even the undead. It's usual in most cultures that those things that are most scary are also the ones that require most social structures to understand them, give a sense of control over them, and to try to keep them at bay.

Can you cite a source for any direct relationship between the Dunlendings and the Woses? I can't recall ever encountering that hypothesis before.

I don't have my Unfinished Tales book at hand, but I think it was there where I got that idea.
I've written that they were "descendents" from the Woses, but I think that was a mistake on my behalf. But I recall them being related.

I took a look at the Tolkien Gateway and found this:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Dunlendings

The ancestors of the Dunlendings were also the ancestors of the Haladin, the second of the Three Houses of the Edain who led her people from East Beleriand to Brethil. They were a reclusive folk, dark-haired but smaller in stature than the Bëorians or the Marachians. They kept separate from the other Men. Their language was different from the ones that used by the other Edain.

After the fall of Beleriand, the survivors went to Númenor but those who didn't cross the Ered Luin settled upon either side of the Gwathló or in the Ered Nimrais. In the First Age, the Drúedain lived among them and shared close relationship, more than with any other race of men.

Also, from the House of Haleth:

The ancestors of the Haladin moved from Hildórien to the West. During their migration they joined the Drúedain near the White Mountains and stayed with them on friendly terms.

When the core of their team was pressed to wander on, some Drúedain accompanied them northwards, passing through the opening between the Misty Mountains and the White Mountains.

So, close relationship yes, descendents from them no.

So a few comments without resorting to a huge thing of quotes:

@Falenthal (and Halbarad):

Right, my thoughts were also that Dunlendings, being a less "righteous" culture, should be more about flirting with the Shadow. While that sounds 'dangerous', mechanically speaking, Shadow is probably easier to shake off than Hope is to regain. Thus, my further thought is that Dunlendings would not shed Shadow in the usual sense (Undertaking in Fellowship Phase and by making a Song or Craft test.) Rather, I think Dunlending "repentance" should be a little more brutal and more about proving to himself that he is not cowardly. Basically, anytime a Dunlending is wounded or "knocked out of combat", he sheds 2 shadow points, and anytime he succeeds with a Great/Extraordinary success against a Fear Test, he sheds 1/2 shadow points. This would encourage the Dunlending to behave rather recklessly and bravely, almost to the point of foolishness. It would also encourage them to not be wearing much armor (because, like Beornings, sometimes they WANT to be wounded, but for different reasons).

@Halbarad

Cool on the Bloody Minded thing! Yes, I'm a "west-of-the-pond"er, so it was lost on me, unfortunately. You just made me a bit more worldly. So that works well.

So, I definitely like the Belly Spear having a secondary affect triggered on a wound. And I also like the accepting of 1 shadow in order to trigger it. Thus, the effect should be fairly spectacular (must succeed on a piercing blow and accept a point of shadow.)

What if...(going into uncharted territory here) the effect was a bleed per round (endurance damage per round) type of effect? Something like...[Dunlending Valour] per round in Endurance loss?

@Zed

Fell and Ancient Songs is, thus, Cultural Virtue right? What about making it into a 2 or 3 parter, like some of the other virtues, where you spend 1 XP during subsequent Fellowship Phases to get other "spells".

Falenthal wrote:I don't have my Unfinished Tales book at hand, but I think it was there where I got that idea.
I've written that they were "descendents" from the Woses, but I think that was a mistake on my behalf. But I recall them being related...

Okay, thanks!

What about something simple for the Barbed Spear. When scoring a Piercing Blow for the cost of gaining one shadow increase injury by 2. I think thats plenty good on a Greatspear.

compare Great Ax d9, e12, injury 20, enc 4
compare Great Spear d9, e9, injury 16, enc 4

combine with Fell and you can match the injury of Great Axe, on the other hand for the cost of two keen rewards a great ax could match Great Spears edge. The Dunlending pays Shadow extra but thats fair and it sounds like shadow may benefit them to some extent with other Dunlending virtues.