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Otaku-sempai wrote:

Glorelendil wrote:...Delving has a primarily figurative meaning that is perfect, whereas Spelunking has a very specific, narrow definition.

Plus Spelunking is a modern word that didn't really come into usage until the 1940s. And it sounds terrible.

'Delve' derives from Old English and sounds great.

Okay. Not to side-line the main topic but Delving still implies digging, mining or some form of underground contruction. As nice as the word sounds, the term Underground Travel would fit better.

The first three versions were called "Underground Travel".

Look up the definition for Delve. Most of the sources I found had the digging meaning listed third. Some version of "to look for something" usually comes before.

I do understand your point, but "Dungeon", "Shadow", "Wight", and countless other words also have specific, literal meanings that differ from their uses in gaming and fantasy.

Ok, first attempt at addressing the ideas discussed above:

1) Same basic premise: sustained Delving tests, for each one randomly determine whether it's Body (Explore), Heart (Travel), or Wits (Riddle)
2) Before starting, players declare which of those three categories they will participate in. More than one is permissible, as is "None", which for now we we call the "Useless Baggage" role.
3) For each roll, all heroes with the relevant role roll the relevant skill, and all successes count toward total needed. This represents a group working together on a task.
4) If nobody succeeds, it means the group failed to make any progress, and Plight increases by 1. (Plight may still be reduced by using extra successes.)
5) If anybody failed with the Feat die less than or equal to Plight, a group Hazard is encountered. These hazards are all of the "use common skills to safely pass" sort, not adversaries. (If more than one such roll is made, the Hazard can be extra challenging.)
6) After every Delving test, a Torch check is made: a Feat die is rolled, and it comes up less than or equal to the size of the Fellowship, Torch/Light rating decreases by 1.
7) On any group skill check (e.g., "Everybody roll Awareness to pass this Hazard") when anybody rolls an Eye of Sauron or when somebody in the "Useless Baggage" role rolls Plight or lower, they trigger a personal Hazard, which may occur later.* (Note: I don't love this location for the mechanic; it's a placeholder for now.)

Rationale:
1) Plight becomes kind of like a scaling Eye of Sauron: it determines the threshold at which Hazards are triggered.
) There is a group incentive for multiple heroes to roll on each Delving test, both to increase the likelihood that at least one success is rolled (to avoid increasing Plight), and to reduce the overall number of tests made on the way to the objective (in order to make fewer Torch checks.) So just letting the guy with the highest skill do all the rolls solo is bad idea.
2) On the other hand, more participants mean a greater likelihood of triggering Hazards by rolling Plight or lower on the Feat die, so you don't want to pile on too many people.
3) Finally, heroes have an incentive to take at least one role to minimize the chance of triggering personal hazards.
4) Torches get consumed faster with larger groups (which makes sense) but larger groups also start with a higher score because they can carry more torches.

Reactions? (I know some of you...Zed and Rocco, for example...are probably burning out on reading all the iterations of these rules. But I want it perfect.)

I actually feel a bit guilty, for being consumed with work stuff and not paying this the attention it deserves. (Plus it does help having some new blood pick at it).

I really like this. I do agree with you that (especially the Eye of Sauron on common skill tests, since that might increase Eye Awareness anyways) the section on personal Hazards is a bit off.

I wonder if you could drop personal Hazards and just note that it's extremely recommended to use the Eye of Mordor rules with Delving, and Revelation episodes can be personally triggered.

zedturtle wrote: I wonder if you could drop personal Hazards and just note that it's extremely recommended to use the Eye of Mordor rules with Delving, and Revelation episodes can be personally triggered.

I'm almost there, but there are a couple of things in the personal hazard category I'm loathe to shed. Working through a couple more ideas, though.

EDIT: Oh oh oh you are totally right. The solution is to get rid of Hazard tables and introduce a Revelation Table.

So Hazards will be thematic by Body, Heart, Wits, depending on what sort of Delving test was failed. Revelation episodes will by rolled on a table, and will include Separation, Combat, Discovery...and "What Have I Got in my Pocket" on a Gandalf.

So, let's say you trigger a Hazard on a Body test, and end up having to repair a rickety bridge with Craft skill. Somebody rolls a Sauron, triggering a Revelation episode. The LM rolls "Separation" on the Revelation chart, so decides that when some of the party has crossed, the bridge collapses and falls into the abyss, leaving some of the group stranded on either side.

New question: what do you think of "Inspire" for Heart-based Delving tests, instead of Travel? The rationale would be:
Body tests mean the terrain is rough and requires a physically safe, navigable route to be found, with Explore.
Riddle tests mean that confusing choices and signs must be interpreted to avoid wasting time, with Riddle
Heart tests mean that the way is particularly daunting and discouraging, and the natural leaders of the group must step up to keep the others...and each other...moving forward.

The problem I have with Travel is that practically everybody makes it a priority skill, so there will likely be "too many" heroes with a solid Travel score. Which means that the rolls will be too easy, and nobody will be left over for the "Useless Baggage." (The goal of the latest rules iteration is to get more than one, but not too many, people into each role, with at least one left over with no role.)

Other candidates for Heart rolls are:
Wisdom: but that suffers from the same issues as Travel, that by the time the heroes get to challenging Delves they'll generally have 3 or 4 Wisdom, so anybody with bad Explore and Riddle scores will just pile on to the Wisdom team.
Insight: if interpreted as "Intuition" this could be a great skill, but that's not how RAW describes it.

I agree that Travel is already a priority skill: better use something else.
Inspire is fairly legit. Insight could be better, IF it covers intuition as well.
I'm against using Wisdom, for symmetry sake and because such a dismal environment is already ripe for corruption rolls

Corvo wrote:I agree that Travel is already a priority skill: better use something else.
Inspire is fairly legit. Insight could be better, IF it covers intuition as well.
I'm against using Wisdom, for symmetry sake and because such a dismal environment is already ripe for corruption rolls

Yes, completely agree.

I'm sort of liking Inspire. Explore, Inspire, and Riddle feel like a nice triad of skills.

Explore Hazards might lead to loss of Endurance or Wounds.
Inspire Hazards might lead to Shadow, Fatigue, or loss of Hope.
Riddle Hazards might increase the # of required successes, consume torches, or increase Plight.

EDIT: Oh, and what about a preliminary roll for Delving? Should it be Travel, representing preparation? Or maybe even Craft? ("Let's see...some rope, a few iron spikes, caltrops, chalk, ball of string, bullseye lantern, grappling hook, cartographer's kit...wait, where's my 10' pole? You can't go into a dungeon without a 10' pole, for Eru's Sake!")

Glorelendil wrote:

zedturtle wrote: I wonder if you could drop personal Hazards and just note that it's extremely recommended to use the Eye of Mordor rules with Delving, and Revelation episodes can be personally triggered.

I'm almost there, but there are a couple of things in the personal hazard category I'm loathe to shed. Working through a couple more ideas, though.

EDIT: Oh oh oh you are totally right. The solution is to get rid of Hazard tables and introduce a Revelation Table.

So Hazards will be thematic by Body, Heart, Wits, depending on what sort of Delving test was failed. Revelation episodes will by rolled on a table, and will include Separation, Combat, Discovery...and "What Have I Got in my Pocket" on a Gandalf.

So, let's say you trigger a Hazard on a Body test, and end up having to repair a rickety bridge with Craft skill. Somebody rolls a Sauron, triggering a Revelation episode. The LM rolls "Separation" on the Revelation chart, so decides that when some of the party has crossed, the bridge collapses and falls into the abyss, leaving some of the group stranded on either side.

What if - instead of making a random table for the Revelation episodes, you instead just included a list? That would make it more like what you see from the Rivendell book where the concept was introduced. Normally I love random tables, but for Revelation episodes I really enjoy picking the one that seems most appropriate, based on the current circumstances.

Majestic wrote:

Glorelendil wrote:

zedturtle wrote: I wonder if you could drop personal Hazards and just note that it's extremely recommended to use the Eye of Mordor rules with Delving, and Revelation episodes can be personally triggered.

I'm almost there, but there are a couple of things in the personal hazard category I'm loathe to shed. Working through a couple more ideas, though.

EDIT: Oh oh oh you are totally right. The solution is to get rid of Hazard tables and introduce a Revelation Table.

So Hazards will be thematic by Body, Heart, Wits, depending on what sort of Delving test was failed. Revelation episodes will by rolled on a table, and will include Separation, Combat, Discovery...and "What Have I Got in my Pocket" on a Gandalf.

So, let's say you trigger a Hazard on a Body test, and end up having to repair a rickety bridge with Craft skill. Somebody rolls a Sauron, triggering a Revelation episode. The LM rolls "Separation" on the Revelation chart, so decides that when some of the party has crossed, the bridge collapses and falls into the abyss, leaving some of the group stranded on either side.

What if - instead of making a random table for the Revelation episodes, you instead just included a list? That would make it more like what you see from the Rivendell book where the concept was introduced. Normally I love random tables, but for Revelation episodes I really enjoy picking the one that seems most appropriate, based on the current circumstances.

I think that's a fair point. The table I was thinking of would still allow a lot of interpretation; the entries would be broad categories like "Hunted", "Cut Off", "Discovered", "Separated", etc., with notes for LM.

On the other hand, my latest thinking around the Baggage role (that is, no role) is that if you roll the final Eye that triggers the Revelation, something specific happens to you, not the group. I.e., a tentacle grabs you from the pool by the door, or you have to make a wisdom save or be unable to resist throwing a rock down a well, etc.

1) I love the name of Useless Baggage.
2) I really hope that I get to play these rules and I end up unable to resist the temptation to drop a rock down a well. I mean, I know it'd be idiotic, but dropping rocks down deep holes is so *fun*. Or throwing them in lakes.