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zedturtle wrote:Yeah, I can't say that I'm a fan of adding complexity to fights just for the sake of it. The 'Called Shot on a Eye' rule is weak, but this is a lot of complexity whereas something like 'If you fail your attack with the Eye of Sauron, the targeted Adversary rolls two Feat Dice and picks the best on their next attack.' would make EoS's in combat much more scary.

I would like to see EoS's in combat be more scary (and I like your solution above), but then either adversaries don't make called shots, or their use is left to the discretion of the LM. And as we've been discussing in your Beornsvager game, I'm not a fan of LMs making player-like decisions on behalf of adversaries.

I actually like the enemies getting Called Shots, because many of them have poison on their blades, so I will not leave that out of the game. The problem is that a Goblin Archer will almost never make that shot, and even if he scores an EoS he will miss if there are no Tengwars.
So to keep the RAW and introduce Hazards like we see them in the published game, we need to prepare events that are triggered by an EoS.
For each fight there could be 4-5 prepared events that will trigger when the players roll an Eye. The events should be keyed to the location and to the enemy.

Surprise from below (Awareness to avoid)
An enemy has feigned being dead, and suddenly attacks. Half Parry, or No parry on EoS on Awareness. The attack will be a Called Shot regardless of success or failure of the Awareness test.

Falling Tree (Athletics to get out of the way)
Knockback...

Orc kamikaze (Battle to defend against this tactic)
An Orc will charge head first into the companion and open up the companions defense for retaliation. Moderately hindered until...

Poisonous fumes (Lore to recognize the Poisonous Explosive Mushroom under your feet)
You are blinded by the sudden release of poisonous spores. Severely hindered until a successful Healing test has been made.

I think you all get the idea. They are the same effects, and there is a test to avoid the situation.
I agree that there should be a test to avoid the Hazard for symmetry between the 3 phases of TOR.

I don't believe in specific skills for the specific Stances. Surprise is part of the fun...

Indur Dawndeath wrote: I don't believe in specific skills for the specific Stances. Surprise is part of the fun...

I agree in general, but that's exactly how it works for Journeys: if you choose "Scout" then your Hazards will require Explore rolls.

If you want to convert the roles from Journeys to combat, then each player should select a role. Stance is not a role..
Leader: Organize and lead (Inspire)
Frontline fighter: Deal with confusion of close combat (Battle)
Defender: Make sure that the defensive line is maintained (Athletics)
Archer: Keep an eye out for new threats (Awareness)

In this case Hazards will be keyed to the roles, and if a role is not occupied, then a companion can spend a point of Hope to fill the role and try to make the test...

...
EDIT:
You could even use pretty much the same effects from Journeys, you just need to improvise a reason for the effect.
G Roll again
1-2 Weariness Temporarily Weary for the length of the Combat.
3 Misery Temporarily Miserable for the length of Combat.
4-5 Fatigue Add Fatigue again, twice on an EoS.
6 Wound Lose Endurance equal to Success die result, or suffer a Wound on an EoS.
7 Corruption Gain 1 Shadow, or 2 Shadow on an EoS.
8 Strain Lose Endurance equal to Success die result.
9 Despair Lose 1 point of Hope, or 2 Hope on an EoS.
10 Wrong Choices Raise TN one level for further Attack tests.
EoS Dangerous Meeting The Loremaster improvises a new threat that joins the Combat.

I have a long rebuttal about how stances serve perfectly well, but really I agree with Zedturtle: combat doesn't need another layer of rules. A few more combat tasks, sure, but not another layer of dice rolling. Even the existing EoS rules is probably fine: sure it tends to turn out to be a benefit, statistically, but even so it will every now and then cause interesting complications.

Indur Dawndeath wrote:If you want to convert the roles from Journeys to combat, then each player should select a role. Stance is not a role..
Leader: Organize and lead (Inspire)
Frontline fighter: Deal with confusion of close combat (Battle)
Defender: Make sure that the defensive line is maintained (Athletics)
Archer: Keep an eye out for new threats (Awareness)

In this case Hazards will be keyed to the roles, and if a role is not occupied, then a companion can spend a point of Hope to fill the role and try to make the test...

...
EDIT:
You could even use pretty much the same effects from Journeys, you just need to improvise a reason for the effect.
G Roll again
1-2 Weariness Temporarily Weary for the length of the Combat.
3 Misery Temporarily Miserable for the length of Combat.
4-5 Fatigue Add Fatigue again, twice on an EoS.
6 Wound Lose Endurance equal to Success die result, or suffer a Wound on an EoS.
7 Corruption Gain 1 Shadow, or 2 Shadow on an EoS.
8 Strain Lose Endurance equal to Success die result.
9 Despair Lose 1 point of Hope, or 2 Hope on an EoS.
10 Wrong Choices Raise TN one level for further Attack tests.
EoS Dangerous Meeting The Loremaster improvises a new threat that joins the Combat.

Wow, this is interesting! Your suggestions for combat roles intrigue me. I like the idea of Leader, Defender, and Archer, but I would come up with a new name for front-line fighter. Maybe Brawler or Skirmisher, because really, all close combat positions are on the front-line so to speak. I have to go, but I will come back to this later...

Just wanted to say that I love your hazards rule. I just had a session with my six players (albeit an amazing one) wherein a metric crapton of eyes were rolled, to no real ill effect. I will be using a slightly modified version of your hazards from now on. And while everyone else is talking about it, I would say don't mess with stance reliant hazards overmuch. It over complicates ToR, which is supposed to be a fairly simple RPG (compared to other RPGs, at least.) I would say do as I did and only differentiate between Close Combat and Ranged Combat stances as a whole instead of each individual stance. Anyway, here's the modified 1d6 table.

1 Caught in the Open: Cycle a stance forward (backward to Defensive if already in Forward Stance; into Open if Rearward) as you lose your ground or the enemy forces you to reposition. If your enemy has already acted, then you cannot change stance as usual at the start of the next round.

2 Friendly Fire: Whether you over-commit on a blow or a companion nearby your intended target wandered into line of your shot, they are struck for your weapon's base damage (not including bonus modifiers). Close Combatants roll among themselves, Ranged Combatants roll for a companion near their intended target.

3 Slip: You have lost your footing, and are considered moderately hindered attacking (+2 TN for PC) and defending (-2 TN for Adversaries) until you spend a full round to get your bearing again.

4 Blinded: You have been blinded by blood, dust or a ill-fitted helm. You are severely hindered (same as above but +4/-4) until you spend a turn clearing your vision.

5 Battle Fatigue: A stressful movement or the sheer length of the battle at hand overtaxes you and you must temporarily raise your fatigue by 2 until the battle's conclusion.

6 (If Close Combat) Blindsided: Your enemy takes advantage of a critical mistake and piles through your defenses. One randomly selected engaged enemy may make a free attack against you using only your stance as TN.
(If Ranged w/ Bow) Broken String: With a loud report, your bowstring snaps. You must spend a turn making a TN 14 Craft roll to repair it...or do without for the remainder of the battle.
(If Ranged w/ Thrown) Cast Aside: Your enemy plucks your chosen weapon from its shield or the earth and casts it far and away. You may not retrieve it during the battle and it is irrevocably lost if you fail a TN 14 Search roll to locate it after. Cultural rewards and famous weapons are immune to the latter effect.

zedturtle wrote:Yeah, I can't say that I'm a fan of adding complexity to fights just for the sake of it. The 'Called Shot on a Eye' rule is weak, but this is a lot of complexity whereas something like 'If you fail your attack with the Eye of Sauron, the targeted Adversary rolls two Feat Dice and picks the best on their next attack.' would make EoS's in combat much more scary.

I'm in a rush now, and these last days have been busy in the forums with VERY interesting new things (Glorelendil's Delving rules and James' and Indur's additions) that I haven't had time to read and think about.

But I just wanted to pop up and comment here: fully agree with zed that Combat (and to my liking also Encounters) don't need more detail. They are both endeavours where players already have decisions to make and can take the initiative in the game. On the contrary, Travels may seem too passive for them if not for the Hazards.

That said, all this additions make for wonderful resource for the LM to choose upon in certain ocasions, but not everytime an Eye is rolled, IMHO.

Regarding the small change that zed proposed to make the "Called Shot on EoS" more fearful, I'd propose another different change: Instead of rolling the Feat die twice and keeping the best, roll one additonal Success die, up to six. This way, the adversary has a better chance of hitting AND of scoring a 6, which would make an enemy's Called Shot a real danger. Also, it would have logic by saying that the hero losed foot or opened his defenses with his failure and Eye.

Question: all this options you're proposing, are activated just by rolling an EoS or by failing the attack AND rolling an EOS? Sorry if this has been answered. As said, I'm in a rush now.

Keep up the good work, there are magnificient ideas here!

Falenthal wrote: Regarding the small change that zed proposed to make the "Called Shot on EoS" more fearful, I'd propose another different change: Instead of rolling the Feat die twice and keeping the best, roll one additonal Success die, up to six. This way, the adversary has a better chance of hitting AND of scoring a 6, which would make an enemy's Called Shot a real danger. Also, it would have logic by saying that the hero losed foot or opened his defenses with his failure and Eye.

Question: all this options you're proposing, are activated just by rolling an EoS or by failing the attack AND rolling an EOS? Sorry if this has been answered. As said, I'm in a rush now.

Interesting....and it could be a reciprocal rule: "Whenever an Eye of Sauron is rolled as part of an attack roll, subsequent attacks against that combatant are granted one bonus die. If the Eye of Sauron was rolled by a player-hero, attacking adversaries will use the bonus die to attempt a called shot."

So heroes would get the bonus, too, they just wouldn't have to use a called shot. This may be my favorite version yet.

Regarding fumble tables, here and elsewhere, keep in mind the probability: if there's a 1/12 chance of a fumble, and a 1/6 chance of hitting your companion, that means 1/72 attacks will hit a friend. Seems high. On my version it was 1/144 plus you have to fail a skill roll...

Unrelated and undocumented, but interesting:
"There have been many thousands of friendly fire incidents in recorded military history, accounting for an estimated 2% to 20% of all casualties in battle." (Source: Wikipedia)