Eye of Mordor from the ground up

[Blubbo Baggins]

I think Rich has something here..

Just cutting for brevity but like I said earlier you would need to factor into the target thresholds that you are now adding +1 when Valour/Wisdom was greater than 3 and +1 if using an item of renown to EA on every EYE result. Personally, I'm not sure those adding to EA all the time is desirable and would like to see what Glorelendil comes up with.

What if there was a fixed threshold for Eye Awareness.
It could be based on the company size plus a fixed number (+10?)
or possibly the company size multiplied by a factor (*3?)

Then Eye Awareness was increased based on multiple factors:
Culture: Hobbits=0, Men, Silvan Elves, Dwarves=1, Dúnedain=2, High Elves=3
Valour or Wisdom > 4 = +1
Famouos Weapon or Item = +1
Region: Free Lands, Border Lands=0, Wild lands=+1, Shadow Lands=+2, Dark Lands =+3
Add a point of Eye Awareness with each gain of a shadow point
Add a point when magic is used

So a High Elf with a famous sword and a wisdom of 5 rolling an Eye in a Wild Land would add 6 points to the eye awareness for the company (3+1+1+1). A Hobbit with a Famous mail shirt and a valour of 5 rolling an eye in a Dark land would generate 5 points of Eye Awareness. (0+1+1+3)

I think this incorporates all of the components in the RAW, it just factors the region into the generation of points rather than using it to set the threshold.

Thoughts?

Rich,

What if the additional Awareness added upon rolling an Eye is always:
+ X for the culture
+ X for the Region (as suggested by Wbw)
and then only +1 for Valour or Wisdom above 4 if the roll was a roll USING Val/Wis
and/or only +1 for Famous Weapon if the roll was using the weapon in some way (attack, Flame of Hope/Gleaming Terror).

Wbw,

I really like your suggestion as well. It also simplifies RAW by not changing the Threshold for a Revelation (you just always use a fixed #), and eliminates auto-Reveal episodes by changing your Region. I very much like this.

[zedturtle]

What if there was a fixed threshold for Eye Awareness.
It could be based on the company size plus a fixed number (+10?)
or possibly the company size multiplied by a factor (*3?)

Then Eye Awareness was increased based on multiple factors:
Culture: Hobbits=0, Men, Silvan Elves, Dwarves=1, Dúnedain=2, High Elves=3
Valour or Wisdom > 4 = +1
Famouos Weapon or Item = +1
Region: Free Lands, Border Lands=0, Wild lands=+1, Shadow Lands=+2, Dark Lands =+3
Add a point of Eye Awareness with each gain of a shadow point
Add a point when magic is used

So a High Elf with a famous sword and a wisdom of 5 rolling an Eye in a Wild Land would add 6 points to the eye awareness for the company (3+1+1+1). A Hobbit with a Famous mail shirt and a valour of 5 rolling an eye in a Dark land would generate 5 points of Eye Awareness. (0+1+1+3)

I think this incorporates all of the components in the RAW, it just factors the region into the generation of points rather than using it to set the threshold.

Thoughts?

I'd prefer a way that didn't factor region into the value... everything else is character based (meaning it can be a number on the character sheet --- 'Sauron's Regard' or something like that), and the region is group based. Moving into a new region should possibly trigger revelation episodes... one does not simply walk into Mordor, after all.

[Glorelendil]

I'd prefer a way that didn't factor region into the value... everything else is character based (meaning it can be a number on the character sheet --- 'Sauron's Regard' or something like that), and the region is group based. Moving into a new region should possibly trigger revelation episodes... one does not simply walk into Mordor, after all.

Yeah, I gotta agree. As much as I like(d) the idea of a fixed Hunt Threshold, it feels like Eye Awareness should be based on the character, and Hunt Threshold on the environment.

I'm not a fan of varying the size of the increase. Partly from aesthetics, but the math worries me, too. Because it scales by whole integers it seems like the total difference between a maxed out hero and a starting hero will be too great. I.e., in RAW the difference between a Noldor and a Hobbit is 3 points, but only once, so if both the elf and the Hobbit roll 5 Saurons, the Elf has only contributed 60% more (8 vs 5) to Eye Awareness. But if the Elf adds 3 each time, and the Hobbit adds zero, then the Elf contributes...well, infinitely more. So let's compare 3 to 1 (Noldor vs. Woodman, say): over any number of Saurons rolled the Elf still contributes 300% more. That's just too penalizing.

I'd have to do some math on my proposal in order to give some numbers, but my gut says it offers a smoother curve.

Also, if the points generated scales, then you still run into a problem at the extreme end of points accumulating too quickly. A couple of enchanted items, high Wisdom, and pretty soon you've got multiple people in the party generating 4 or 5 points with each Sauron. If you've tuned Hunt Thresholds such that low-level heroes in level-appropriate zones generate Revelations at a reasonable rate, now those high-level heroes in Dark and Shadow lands are going to generate Revelations every 1-3 Eyes. And if you increase Thresholds to compensate, the low-level heroes will almost never have Revelations. It's kind of the same problem that exists now, and it exists because all the inputs are integer values, not decimal probabilities.

The advantage of only generating a maximum of one point per roll, and always setting initial Eye Awareness at zero, is that you know it will never take fewer rolls than whatever Threshold you pick.

[Blubbo Baggins]

I'd prefer a way that didn't factor region into the value... everything else is character based (meaning it can be a number on the character sheet --- 'Sauron's Regard' or something like that), and the region is group based. Moving into a new region should possibly trigger revelation episodes... one does not simply walk into Mordor, after all.

Yeah, I gotta agree. As much as I like(d) the idea of a fixed Hunt Threshold, it feels like Eye Awareness should be based on the character, and Hunt Threshold on the environment.

I'm not a fan of varying the size of the increase. Partly from aesthetics, but the math worries me, too. Because it scales by whole integers it seems like the total difference between a maxed out hero and a starting hero will be too great. I.e., in RAW the difference between a Noldor and a Hobbit is 3 points, but only once, so if both the elf and the Hobbit roll 5 Saurons, the Elf has only contributed 60% more (8 vs 5) to Eye Awareness. But if the Elf adds 3 each time, and the Hobbit adds zero, then the Elf contributes...well, infinitely more. So let's compare 3 to 1 (Noldor vs. Woodman, say): over any number of Saurons rolled the Elf still contributes 300% more. That's just too penalizing.

I'd have to do some math on my proposal in order to give some numbers, but my gut says it offers a smoother curve.

Also, if the points generated scales, then you still run into a problem at the extreme end of points accumulating too quickly. A couple of enchanted items, high Wisdom, and pretty soon you've got multiple people in the party generating 4 or 5 points with each Sauron. If you've tuned Hunt Thresholds such that low-level heroes in level-appropriate zones generate Revelations at a reasonable rate, now those high-level heroes in Dark and Shadow lands are going to generate Revelations every 1-3 Eyes. And if you increase Thresholds to compensate, the low-level heroes will almost never have Revelations. It's kind of the same problem that exists now, and it exists because all the inputs are integer values, not decimal probabilities.

The advantage of only generating a maximum of one point per roll, and always setting initial Eye Awareness at zero, is that you know it will never take fewer rolls than whatever Threshold you pick.

OK, I do agree with both of your points - region should set the Threshold (one cannot just walk into Mordor), and having EA at 0 and always 1 point per roll keeps things simple.

So how to do this and ALSO keep the system simple and ALSO account for larger groups of PCs that, at higher levels are permanently over the Threshold?

[Angelalex242]

Well...

Why doesn't Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf, Radagast, and Saruman all form an adventuring group and go challenge the might of Mordor, mano a mano?

Well presumably, if enough firepower gathers in one place, Sauron is automatically aware of it and can devote all his effort into crushing the bright light he can't miss seeing.

So the answer, therefore, to a group who automatically triggers revelations endlessly is to throw the armies of Mordor at them, eternally and relentlessly, till they kill enough PCs to pare the group down to something that doesn't trigger revelations.

That is, perhaps there's a 'max group size', and if that group size is exceeded, Sauron just attacks you till you die, full stop.

[Glorelendil]

Why doesn't Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf, Radagast, and Saruman all form an adventuring group and go challenge the might of Mordor, mano a mano?

Because Radagast lost his sense of mission, Elrond and Galadriel know that the mortal races need to solve this one for themselves (read: all their skills are checked) and Gandalf, if I recall my lore correctly, did in fact form an adventuring party to challenge Sauron.

[Angelalex242]

And he put 4 hobbits in that party instead of 4 Noldor.

Clearly, he needed to keep his Eye Awareness down.

[Glorelendil]

And he put 4 hobbits in that party instead of 4 Noldor.

Clearly, he needed to keep his Eye Awareness down.

Assuming that JRR Tolkien was familiar with the Rivendell supplement, he would have known that adding Hobbits doesn't actually reduce Eye Awareness.

[zedturtle]

And he put 4 hobbits in that party instead of 4 Noldor.

Clearly, he needed to keep his Eye Awareness down.

Assuming that JRR Tolkien was familiar with the Rivendell supplement, he would have known that adding Hobbits doesn't actually reduce Eye Awareness.

There's some evidence that he was using a slightly different ruleset.

I understand your objection to the scale factor of using integers. More thoughts later.

[Wbweather]

Yeah, I gotta agree. As much as I like(d) the idea of a fixed Hunt Threshold, it feels like Eye Awareness should be based on the character, and Hunt Threshold on the environment.

So my proposal was based on the fact that I thought the intent was to not trigger revelation episodes when moving from one region to another. But I can see the argument of the region contributing to the threshold. I don't have a preference anyway. I think it could be argued that in a region thick with shadow, rolling an eye would attract much more attention than in an area controlled by free peoples or under the influence of the elves.

I'm not a fan of varying the size of the increase. Partly from aesthetics, but the math worries me, too. Because it scales by whole integers it seems like the total difference between a maxed out hero and a starting hero will be too great. I.e., in RAW the difference between a Noldor and a Hobbit is 3 points, but only once, so if both the elf and the Hobbit roll 5 Saurons, the Elf has only contributed 60% more (8 vs 5) to Eye Awareness. But if the Elf adds 3 each time, and the Hobbit adds zero, then the Elf contributes...well, infinitely more. So let's compare 3 to 1 (Noldor vs. Woodman, say): over any number of Saurons rolled the Elf still contributes 300% more. That's just too penalizing.

If you look at the math for a maxed out hobbit vs a maxed out High Elf rolling 5 Eyes in a Dark region, the hobbit would generate 25 points of shadow awareness, while the elf would generate 40. Sure the elf generates 60% more SA, but that is not infinitely more. You could adjust the frequency of Revelation Episodes by increasing or lowering the factor you multiply the company size by. So if your average PC generated 5 SA on each roll of an Eye you would expect to add 5 points every twelfth roll on average. Multiplying the company size by 3 for your threshold, for a company of 4 you would have a revelation episode on average every 36 rolls (9 rolls per player). For a company of 6 it would happen every 48 rolls on average (8 rolls per player). For a company of 8 you would average a Revelation Episode every 60 rolls (7.5 roles per player). You could adjust the factor up or down to adjust the frequency of Revelations. Bear in mind that the thresholds would be much larger in this method than in the RAW.

Also, if the points generated scales, then you still run into a problem at the extreme end of points accumulating too quickly. A couple of enchanted items, high Wisdom, and pretty soon you've got multiple people in the party generating 4 or 5 points with each Sauron. If you've tuned Hunt Thresholds such that low-level heroes in level-appropriate zones generate Revelations at a reasonable rate, now those high-level heroes in Dark and Shadow lands are going to generate Revelations every 1-3 Eyes. And if you increase Thresholds to compensate, the low-level heroes will almost never have Revelations. It's kind of the same problem that exists now, and it exists because all the inputs are integer values, not decimal probabilities.

In my proposal a group of 4 starting players in Wild lands (no hobbits, valour and wisdom <4, no famous weapons or armor) would generate enough points for a revelation episode after 6 Eye rolls. A group of 8 High level characters in Dark Lands( all Dúnedain with a famous weapon and valour or wisdom >4) would generate enough points for a Revelation Episode after 4 Eyes. I don't see that as too unbalanced.

But if you want to use the region to set the threshold without having a group start out at or above the revelation threshold, then why not just bump up the threshold by a number based on the group size (group size - 4?) and follow the RAW otherwise.
Group of 4 = No change
Group of 5 = +1 to all region thresholds
Group of 6 = +2 to all region thresholds
Group of 7 = +3 to all region thresholds
etc.

Or actually you should probably add a number to the threshold for each region based on the companies starting Shadow Awareness. Maybe assume a basic starting awareness of 8 for a group of 4. Subtract that from the company's starting score and add it to the Region's threshold. A group with a starting score of 18 would then have a Shadow Land threshold of 24 (18 - 8 + 14) and a Dark Land Score of 22 (18 - 8 + 12). I'm just throwing these numbers out. There's likely a better way to calculate the amount to add.

This avoids any complicated math and still allows a group to trigger a Revelation Episode by moving into a more dangerous region.