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I am thinking of asking my players to choose between Song and Lore when an event has happened in the past and it has been "recorded" in a song or poem. This may help to encourage them to use that ability that some don't like.

I think I could search for relevant songs in the actual Tolkien canon, and/or create some of my own.

Feedback is very welcome, as well as resources/recopilations of such songs and poems.

Song is an amazing skill already. Adding uses to it is likely make it actively overpowered.

Specifically, you can use it to reduce Shadow, to inspire your comrades in battle, and as a social skill in most Encounters. That's...actually more uses than most skills get, and plenty to make it a solid choice.

Add in the 'writing songs' rules in Rivendell and it's one of the most powerful skills in the game. It's currently giving the party I'm playing in +6-8 bonus dice each and +3-4 Fellowship Pool every session, for example.

Lore meanwhile is used for rolls like this...and journey preparation. That's about it.

The Storytelling specialty, on the other hand, should absolutely be useful for things precisely like this, and can be used to auto-succeed at such Lore checks. Probably ditto on Minstrelsy.

Deadmanwalking wrote:The Storytelling specialty, on the other hand, should absolutely be useful for things precisely like this, and can be used to auto-succeed at such Lore checks.

I'd disagree; from the write-up in the rules Storytelling seems to me like the capability of being able to tell a good and interesting story in the same way that the Song skill shows a person's ability to perform. Things like the Lore skill, Old Lore and Rhymes of Lore give the information that can be used in such performances.

Example: a PC wants to perform the Lay of Luthien. Knowing the lay would be the purview of Lore or 'Rhymes of Lore' and performing it would be executed with Song or 'Storytelling'.

There are going to be variations to this, as the character may have been taught the lay or as part of their background they would know it, but working from first principals without any prior knowledge that's the way I'd break it down, thus maintaining the clear separations between skills and traits that provide the basis/information and those that provide the execution/performance.

thrugg wrote:I am thinking of asking my players to choose between Song and Lore when an event has happened in the past and it has been "recorded" in a song or poem. This may help to encourage them to use that ability that some don't like.

I try and think of things like Song and 'Storytelling' as the character's ability to perform and things like Lore, 'Old Lore', and 'Rhymes of Lore' as the deep knowledge and understanding of such things. Part of the ability to perform a song is it's composition (so that would still be the Song skill etc) but the lore behind such events and knowledge of them is what gives a character the history etc in order to be able to compose a song or story based off of such events.

So, I wouldn't allow Song to be used in the way that you describe - for such a character I'd suggest 'Rhymes of Lore' would be an excellent trait to pick for them. If you read the write-up of Rhymes of Lore on page 96 of the revised rules it explicitly calls out that it is used in this way.

And, welcome to the forums thrugg!

Rich H wrote:I'd disagree; from the write-up in the rules Storytelling seems to me like the capability of being able to tell a good and interesting story in the same way that the Song skill shows a person's ability to perform. Things like the Lore skill, Old Lore and Rhymes of Lore give the information that can be used in such performances.

Technically true. I'd generally be a bit more flexible about that, though, since it really limits who can have Traits involving lore. I mean, Elves, Bardings, and those with the Scholar calling are basically it if you don't allow a little leeway. And inventive uses for Traits are fun!

Definitely true of the Song skill, though. That definitely doesn't need to be any broader than it is.

That's fine if you want to do that. I prefer to give niche protection to the cultures and calling(s) that are learned in such things. Storytelling already offers a huge amount of scope without needing to expand it to include knowledge that is covered by Old Lore and Rhymes of Lore. I'm fine with allowing some leeway in the usage/application of traits, and there are different ways of using many of them, but when using Storytelling (which is clearly described in the rules as to what it relates) to basically allow a character to also have the advantages that Old Lore or Rhymes of Lore traits bestow have then I'd veto it as it's unfair to the characters with those traits. In other words, if I was playing in your game, I'd just pick Storytelling as your interpretation gives me the ability to tell ripping yarns for social purposes and know the secrets of ancient history and lore.

Deadmanwalking wrote: I'd generally be a bit more flexible about that, though, since it really limits who can have Traits involving lore.

That's pretty much the whole point; such lore isn't easily learnt by just anyone and it's why loremasters exist. The knowledge is hard won, rare, and often accounts for years of commitment or even accrued across the ages.

I certainly wouldn't allow it to be nearly as useful in Lore-based situations as Rhymes of Lore or Old Lore. Or perhaps more accurately wouldn't allow it to apply to nearly as many things. I mean, the minutiae of old cultures and even most of their history aren't the purview of Storytelling. But a few big, specific, battles might be.

You two didn't scare thrugg away in your enthusiasm, did ya?

I'll just note that a "song" only tells you what was in the song, not necessarily all the lore surrounding it. In other words, someone may be a walking repository of all things 80s Pop, but that doesn't then mean they can quote chapter and verse about 80s politics / culture other than in very broad terms.

Rhymes of Lore is definitely intended to allow "songs as knowledge". I definitely hold that Storytelling allows one to tell a story well - but it has little to do with Lore per-se. Though a character with Lore / Old Lore / etc that has Storytelling knows some good old ones.