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Angelalex242 wrote:There's no synergy between Bitter Great Spear and Spearman Shield either.

+1 Parry is of little consequence in Forward Stance.

This is a non-sequitur. A Bitter Great Spear and Spearman's Shield can be used from defensive stance pretty readily. They debatably lack synchronicity with a third thing, but even from Forward +1 Parry is quite nice. Debatably nicer than when in defensive vs. weak opponents.

Angelalex242 wrote:Bitter Great Spear, by the way, is about on par with the Splitting Axe (which works on axe AND Great Axe.)

Eh, it's a little better on average, and much better vs. Weary foes (since -1d6 is -3.5 on average, or only -2.5 when they're Weary). But yeah, it's not too much better.

Angelalex242 wrote:There's nothing Bitter Great Spear does that Splitting GreatAxe doesn't do as well...or better. The extra penetration still only goes off on a G Rune, after all. The called shotting Elf can't force it.

Even if this is true (and there's certainly some truth to it)...I wasn't arguing how the rules should work, just making a statement on how they do. And, by the rules, Bitter Spear isn't available to Great Spears.

Angelalex242 wrote:And I've yet to hear a reason why ash wood from Dol Guldur couldn't be made into a great spear format.

Again, I'm not arguing how things should work, just stating how they do.

Fair enough. Fortunately, this is the house rules forum, so...

Do the ME Elves actually get overpowered when you do Bitter Great Spears?

Angelalex242 wrote:Fair enough. Fortunately, this is the house rules forum, so...

Do the ME Elves actually get overpowered when you do Bitter Great Spears?

Probably not, no.

But I'd be worried that with Swordmaster + a Great Shield + Tower Shield a Sword of King Bard would be too powerful, which is why I limited it. TN 23 (26 vs. range) is pretty high when combined with Damage 9 and Injury 20 (all doable in combination). I think that's better than anyone else can manage in terms of combined offense and defense.

Hmmm. Swordmaster is only used in defensive stance, so...

12+4 wits (at best) + 3 Swordmaster +3 Great Shield +3 vs. Ranged only...

is 22, 25 vs. ranged. That is really tanky.

A Beorning doesn't get the ranged bonus, but...

12+ 4 wits + 3 Great Strength +3 Great Shield=...22.

Woodmen can get up to 12+7 wits+3 Great Shield +3 home field advantage...so that 22 or 25 in best case

Mirkwood elves get the same 12+7 wits +3 great shield, but they don't have a home field advantage so 22.

Dwarves get up to 12+6 wits+3 great shield+3 home field advantage (Durin's Folk), 21/24 best case

Halflings get up to 12+6 wits+3 Size Bonus+1 Buckler (all they can use) and cap at 20.

High Elves get 12+ 8 wits +1 wits (lesser Ring) +3 Great Shield for 24, always on.

Dunedain get 12+ 5 Wits +3 great shield...and have one of the worst parries at a mere 20.

And all of these can add +1 parry for reinforcing their shield with a reward.

In light of this, I don't think the Barding is stepping too far ahead with his weapon.

Overpowered doesn't have to mean that it trivializes all the fights or makes everyone else feel useless.

It can simply mean that something is clearly superior to other choices, which means there's no real "choice" at all.

I'm not saying that TOR is free of those traps, but why add more?

Are Elves underpowered if Bitter Spear applies only to Spears?

No. Because we're talking about something that stacks on top of a fell grievous great spear.

It competes, mostly, with the Giant Slaying Spear of the Beornings and the Spear of the Last Alliance of the High Elves.

In light of that...I'm not sure why you're arguing against such a house rule.

Angelalex242 wrote:In light of this, I don't think the Barding is stepping too far ahead with his weapon.

The issue with this is that all the other builds you list are restricted to one-handed weapons. Making the Barding with my hypothetical 'Sword of King Bard' flatly superior to them offensively (+2 damage and +2 Injury over them, or equivalent other bonuses) as well as on par with the best of them defensively.

The only real comparison is an Elf using Spearman's Shield, who is restricted to TN 20 (21 with Reinforced).

+2/5 TN over them seems...we'll go with notably better than the +2 damage the Great Spear provides over a Longsword. Which would be why I restricted it to shields (not great shields), and thus only +1 TN.

The Bitter Spear issue is a lot more defensible, and while I probably wouldn't change that particular rule, it seems reasonable enough and I don't care enough to debate it.

The high elves can also get to TN 21 without any shield at all, using a 6/3/8 build and lesser ring.

The Noldor I'm playing just now does this, using that and a great spear I haven't bothered modding yet because I'm spending his xp on things like books and maps and Wisdom in order to prevent (or at least drastically slow down) the erosion Noldor suffer due to the marking skills off thing.

Angelalex242 wrote:The high elves can also get to TN 21 without any shield at all, using a 6/3/8 build and lesser ring.

The Noldor I'm playing just now does this, using that and a great spear I haven't bothered modding yet because I'm spending his xp on things like books and maps and Wisdom in order to prevent (or at least drastically slow down) the erosion Noldor suffer due to the marking skills off thing.

Given the huge prices Noldor pay for their power (not being able to conventionally get rid of Shadow and paying half again as much for everything you buy with xp) saying that their numbers are comparable to a build that lacks those restrictions is not a good argument that the non-Noldor build is balanced. Quite the opposite if anything.