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So, let me chime in here, and provide some context, since I'm the one who petitioned Zed for a character change.

There's a certain heroic archetype which I had envisioned for my character in Zed's campaign. I don't know if Joseph Campbell has an official name for it, but I'll call it the Divine Idiot.

(spoiler: this conversation may involve some religious themes, so...yeah)

What's a divine idiot? It's a hero who has a certain shield against the corruption of life (this can be physical or spiritual, I think, but mostly spiritual) by virtue of his child-like innocence and faith in goodness/God, or just the idea that "love/good always wins". It suggests a certain closeness to God or the Christ figure, a special favor by virtue of the profound innocence that the person claims.

Examples of Divine Idiots.

Samwise Gamgee.

John Coffey. This was my inspiration, mechanically, for what I'm soliciting from Zed. If you haven't seen the Green Mile, go watch it. John Coffey is a "disease tank"; his divine power is the ability to "suck" the death out of a person, harbor it, and then release it.

Powder. (primary character from the film "Powder")

The Hunchback of Notre Dame.

Sloth from the Goonies.

Forrest Gump.

E.T.

Noah from the Old Testament.

River Tam from Firefly/Serenity.

Other Attributes. Socially awkward or outcast, persecution, rejection by their native people. They are "whooping boys" and should live a life of ridicule, solitude, or pain, almost assuming a certain martyr-like status. Unbeknownst to the masses, though (and possibly even themselves), they perform a very important social role in delivering a message or example of purity/goodness/divinity (which they will generally get punished for). They should do this thanklessly, and without any expectation of reward or gain.

Thoughts for TOR. Just as a common design conceit in modern RPG's is the "tank" (the guy that gets beat on and suffers the worst abuse so the others can live), I like the idea of a character who is a "Spiritual Tank"; someone who can transfer the sins or psychological pain of his companions onto himself, finding a more efficient outlet to release them.

So, there you have the vision and mechanics of what I'm trying to achieve.

zedturtle wrote:

poosticks7 wrote:I appreciate what you are trying to do here but a thought just occurred to me (after reading Falenthal's post)

Why not just have him pick innocent as a trait and leave the cultural blessing alone? It allows the player to maintain his character concept and gives him something to play with - would be a lovely trait to have in fact, lots of roleplaying to be done.

I really don't think you need to attach new rules to it as such.

Although that has got me wondering about Cultural Blessing Variants.... hmmm wonder if we might see something like that in the Adventure's companion.

He specifically raised the idea of a different CB... he doesn't think his current one (Barding) matches his character concept very well.

To be fair, I don't think any of the cultural blessings work well.

And also, such a thing might not have to come about through a Cultural Blessing. I suppose a virtue (or a couple of virtues) would work fine, possibly better.

Zed, it might even be something you could make generic enough to have as one of your Magical Lores:

The Gift of Succor.

1. Bearing the Weight. When a member of your fellowship receives a shadow point, you can "absorb" the shadow point if you succeed on a TN: 12+(their current shadow level) Wisdom(?) test. You are weary until you take the "recovery" action.

2. Atonement. At any time when you would otherwise shed Shadow, you can choose to shed additional shadow points (beyond the results of a normal role) as follows:

-you receive a negative trait: "Bruised", followed by a number (1-x) indicating the severity and level. This negative traits lasts through the next adventuring phase. The Loremaster may invoke this negative trait a number of times throughout the adventuring phase equal to the number in parentheses. Ie, if the hero shed 3 additional shadow points he would get "Bruised (3)". When the Loremaster invokes Bruised, the hero is wracked with physical and spiritual pain, and may automatically fail a task (or worse), subject to the Loremaster's & player discretion.

EDIT: Roc's edit points a different way.

I'm not sure about the magical virtue idea, because I think the ability is innate and not learned. But a regular multi-stage Virtue has a lot to recommend it.

What about a Virtue that allows him to spend a point of hope to assist another player on a corruption test. On a success, both players pass and he regains the hope, on a failure he takes the temporary shadow for both players and does not regain the hope.

Then he can remove a temporary shadow point at a cost (taking a wound? Increasing fatigue?)

That seems to fit in with what Rocmistro is trying to achieve with the character.

zedturtle wrote:EDIT: Roc's edit points a different way.

I'm not sure about the magical virtue idea, because I think the ability is innate and not learned. But a regular multi-stage Virtue has a lot to recommend it.

Right, well that's fine (in terms of it not being a "Magical" virtue, but rather, just a virtue). I think that could work just fine and not necessarily be along your magical arts. That being said, I don't know that all the "magical arts" virtues need to represent "learning" and some in fact could be innate.

To answer your question before you edited the post, Zed, I don't see the proposed mechanics working the way I had intended. That's not to say they are poor suggestions at all, it's just not reflecting what my original vision was. For example, in the suggestions above, it seems to me, based on my reading, that the CB applies to that character only; a way of jockeying around hope/shadow so as to maximize his ratio. If my understanding is correct, then the further loss of the ability based on the awarding of Perma-Shadow runs completely contradictory to the intention of the ability, and further discussion becomes moot.

The main theme of all of this should be self-sacrifice for the sake of companions, and to that end, I don't think the virtue/CB/whatever should be shut down because the character gets a permanent flaw. I don't see the self-sacrificing character's "purity" any less tinged because he acted in such a way that transferred those burdens upon himself. It's like Frodo saying that the Shire has been saved, but not for him. Is Frodo's heroism lessened by the fact that he has become irreversibly strained by the burden he bore to Mordor? Not at all! We celebrate his victory and love him all the more for his sacrifice. It's worth mentioning that being prone to a certain flaw (as codified by the Core Rules in terms such as: Spiteful, Mistrustful, Scornful, etc,) is not the same as actually performing a sinful/immoral deed. As Morpheus says to Neo "There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path". Forrest Gump: "Stupid (evil) is as stupid (evil) does"

Fascinating. I saw the losing of the ability when you gained a Flaw as a strong incentive to keep the character pure, but I agree that sacrifice needs to be part of this.

I wonder if the original approach was backwards... what if the hero could add to the Fellowship Pool by taking on Shadow? What if he had more Permanent Shadow: should he have the same amount of power or a greater amount?

Well, with that description in mind, I'm also gonna throw my support behind making it a Virtue. As Small Folk demonstrates, virtues can very much be inherent rather than learned things.

As for how it should work mechanically...that's another matter. I'll think on it. I do think his bonuses shouldn't be directly based on having high shadow. This seems, thematically, to be a character who should accumulate a lot of Shadow, but then purge it rather than letting it stick around like a Dwarf with Stiff-Necked does sometimes.

In general (maybe not for this particular goal) I love DMW's idea of being a Shadow-sponge for your comrades. That would be a nifty addition to the game, somewhere.

zedturtle wrote:Fascinating. I saw the losing of the ability when you gained a Flaw as a strong incentive to keep the character pure, but I agree that sacrifice needs to be part of this.

I wonder if the original approach was backwards... what if the hero could add to the Fellowship Pool by taking on Shadow? What if he had more Permanent Shadow: should he have the same amount of power or a greater amount?

This might actually be the most elegant proposal out there.

Roll Valour vs. TN: x
-on normal success (or invoke trait such as truehearted, innocent), you add 1 hope to the Fellowship Pool and earn 1 shadow point.
-on a great success, you add 2 hope to FP and earn 1 SP
-on extraordinary succes, you hadd 3 hope to FP and earn 1 SP. ( or maybe 3h, 2s? or maybe 2 h, 0s?)

Glorelendil wrote:In general (maybe not for this particular goal) I love DMW's idea of being a Shadow-sponge for your comrades. That would be a nifty addition to the game, somewhere.

Right, that's actually more what I had originally intended
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WC9aAWGyQXs
But instead of "sucking out" the death/injury/pain/broken-ness/cancer/urinary tract infection, you absorb the shadow. (And without the supernatural glowy lights effect, unless you happen to be an Elf or something).

(Shadow Point hoarding / tanking). But I also like Zed's solution, above.

I guess I don't understand the adding of hope to the fellowship pool from a thematic stand point. From how you describe the character as a shadow sponge, it would make sense for the character to take on other players shadow points. I don't see how adding hope to the pool and gaining temporary shadow points for the effort soaks up anyone else's shadow, but then I think I may be missing the point of what you are trying to accomplish.

I do like the concept a lot.