New combat maneuvers by stance

[ThePat]

Hi all,

just turned from TOR forum lurker to active poster, as I would like to get your feedback on the following list of combat stances that we have introduced in our game.

I am aware that there are a number of suggestions for homebrew maneuvers, but I have not found a comprehensive list of manuevers that spring from similar design principles.

I have had 3 guiding thoughts when setting up these maneuvers:
a) Each stance should offer a range of attractive alternatives
b) A number of non-attack (custom skill use) actions should be formalized using a simlar pattern
c) Heros (and foes) with high weapon skill should be able to trade in some success dice to get additional effects [in some cases this replaces the called shot rules].

Look forward to your feedback.
Best, ThePat

Forward Stance
Intimidate Foe
Roll Awe or Battle vs. TN 10+highest Attribute ranking of foes
Success: Enemy loses 2 Hate points (3 on great success, 4 or valor rating on extraordinary success)
Hate loss divided equally among foes

All out attack*
Add extra success die to melee attack, but lose Parry bonus (TN 6 to hit hero)

Smash shield*
Remove 2 success dice from attack roll; if attack hits it deals damage as per normal rules and smashes opponent's shield

Sweeping Blow*
If Hero is paired against 2 or more foes, he can attack all foes with one attack
Remove success dice equal to total number of foes (2 or 3); roll one attack with remaining dice
Each enemy is hit if attack result is greater than his TN (6+parry)

Open Stance
Rally Comrades
Roll Inspire or Song against TN 14; Success: All Heroes regain up to 2 Endurance Points (3 on great success,
4 or rallying Hero's Heart rating on extraordinary success)

Disarm*
Remove 2 success dies from attack roll; if attack hits it deals damage as per normal rules and enemy drops weapon

Distract Opponent
Roll Riddle or Stealth vs. TN 10+Attribute ranking of foe
Success: This enemy loses 2 Parry point (3 on great success, 4 on extraordinary success) for this and next combat round

Targeted strike*
Remove 2 success dies from attack roll; if attack hits it deals damage as per normal rules
and the attack is an automatic piercing strike independent of roll on Feat die

Twin strike*
Remove 2 success dies from attack roll; then split remaining success dice between two attacks; roll each attack with Feat die + respective number of success dice; Can be used to attack to enemies or one enemy twice

Defensive Stance
Protect Companion
Define companion you want to protect; if this companion is attacked this turn spend 1 Hope to
force enemy to protect you instead; you can make a standard attack on top of this

Defensive Fighting
Reduce a number of success dice from your attack roll; your Parry increases by 2 for each success die

Second wind
Roll Athletics against TN 14; Success: You regain up to 4 Endurance points (5 on great success, 6 or Heart rating on extraordinary success); can be used only once per encounter

Command
Roll Battle vs. TN 10+highest Attribute ranking of foes; Success: Next round on of you companions can spend 1 extra success die on attack actions (2 companions on great success, 3 on extraordinary success) ; no Hero can spend more than 1 of these dice

Rearward Stance
Prepare Shot
Roll Awareness vs. TN 10+ Attribute ranking targeted foe; Success: Next round you can spend 1 extra success die (2 on great success, 3 on extraordinary success) on attack actions

Evasion
Roll Stealth vs. TN 10+highest Attribute ranking of foes; Success: Next round you can spend 1 extra success die (2 on great success, 3 on extraordinary success) on attack actions; (can also be used during opening volley)

Twin shot*
Remove 2 success dies from attack roll; then split remaining success dice between two attacks; roll each attack with Feat die + respective number of success dice; Can be used to attack to enemies or one enemy twice

Targeted shot
Remove 2 success dies from attack roll; if attack hits it deals damage as per normal rules and the attack is an automatic piercing strike independent of roll on Feat die

* Risky maneuver - if "Sauron's Eye" is rolled on Feat die, Hero loses his Parry rating on the next attack against him

[Otaku-sempai]

I like 'em. I'm not sure that we need them, but I like 'em.

[Majestic]

Well done, ThePat! I like them, too. And glad that you're posting here. The more the merrier!

I'm hopeful C7 will give us a few more 'official' maneuvers (perhaps when The Adventurer's Companion comes out?), as I think even just one more (per stance) would spice combat up immensely.

[Falenthal]

Sorry because I'm posting without having read them all throughly and given them a close thought, but I see that there are some maneuvers that repeat the effects of Called Shots (disarm, smash shield,...). Are you planning on replacing Called Shots for Maneuvers (so that swords can smash a shield, and axes disarm a foe)? Or are this in addition to CS?
If so, have you thought if a Called Shot should be easier or harder to achieve? So that a CS with an axe to smash a shield should be easier than a maneuver with a sword to do the same, as a way of reflecting that an axe is a better weapon to do that.
There can be some problems sometimes if a hero with a dagger tries to smash an uruk's shield, just because he's in the right Stance and nothing says he can't do that.

Also, depending on what you do with Called Shots (if you replace them from the game), you'll have to think if the adversaries will still be using them as normal. I don't think it would unbalance the game at all if you replaced CS for the players, but kept them for the adversaries.

[ThePat]

Sorry because I'm posting without having read them all throughly and given them a close thought, but I see that there are some maneuvers that repeat the effects of Called Shots (disarm, smash shield,...). Are you planning on replacing Called Shots for Maneuvers (so that swords can smash a shield, and axes disarm a foe)? Or are this in addition to CS?

Yes, as pointed out in my opening post, the maneuvers replace the called shot rules. In general I will not limit the possible maneuver-by-weapon combinations by rules, but by "common sense" aka "group consent". I see no logic break by axes being able to disarm or swords to go for a piercing attack. The "shield smash by knife" would be rules out by common sense. Distinguishing difficulty by weapon is too complex a rule for myy taste.

Adversaries will also use these maneuver rules in my game. (So replacing the "great success needed for called shot" logic with my "-2 success dice for called shot" logic).

Best, ThePat

[Glorelendil]

I'd love to see a few more combat tasks get added, maybe 1 per stance. I think the goals of doing so should be to add "tactical complexity", meaning that it creates more genuine decisions for players, without obvious "right" answers. Also, no new combat task should replicate (or otherwise diminish the value of) existing abilities, virtues, blessings, etc. With that in mind here are some of my comments:

All out attack*
Add extra success die to melee attack, but lose Parry bonus (TN 6 to hit hero)

I could see this being an interesting trade-off when you're being attacked, but for heroes who are not being attacked (i.e., the fellowship is fighting a single adversary, who is targeting somebody else) then it's not really a decision: you would use this every time. If adversaries have initiative, or a house rule is used where adversaries declare targets after the heroes take their attacks, it would work better. Or, maybe best of all, using the house rule for trolls and other great opponents that they attack whoever just did the most damage to them. That would make this an extremely risky move, and thus very interesting.

Sweeping Blow*
If Hero is paired against 2 or more foes, he can attack all foes with one attack
Remove success dice equal to total number of foes (2 or 3); roll one attack with remaining dice
Each enemy is hit if attack result is greater than his TN (6+parry)

I'm not opposed to options for increasing the number of attacks per round (while being cognizant of the high cost of doing so with the Spear of the Last Alliance) but a few things here:
1) Because the Feat die gets rolled twice it might be mathematically advantageous to use this ability. I.e., if you attack one opponent your total roll averages 5.5 + (3.5 * skill). Against two opponents the average roll is ((2 * 5.5) + (3.5 * skill)) / 2.
2) Once you figure out the math, it's never a decision whether or not to use it. "Against any opponents with Parry below X, always use this."
3) I really, really, really don't like the language "sweeping" and "attack all foes with one attack". That sounds very video-gamish to me. I'd much rather fluff it as multiple attacks.

Distract Opponent
Roll Riddle or Stealth vs. TN 10+Attribute ranking of foe
Success: This enemy loses 2 Parry point (3 on great success, 4 on extraordinary success) for this and next combat round

An option to lower an adversary's defenses (and/or its attack) is a perennial favorite. Most of them have been designed to assist allies, though; I haven't yet seen one that lasts for 2 rounds, effectively letting the character who does it benefit from it. That's an interesting twist.

Twin strike*
Remove 2 success dies from attack roll; then split remaining success dice between two attacks; roll each attack with Feat die + respective number of success dice; Can be used to attack to enemies or one enemy twice

Same potential math issue as Sweeping Strike, and I think adds unnecessary complexity against one target. You are trading the chance of extra damage for the chance to hit twice, which is largely a wash except for the chance for a second pierce. I guess I'd rather just see a more direct way to either increase chance of pierce and/or increase Injury if you do pierce, that doesn't favor particular weapons.

Defensive Fighting
Reduce a number of success dice from your attack roll; your Parry increases by 2 for each success die

Mathematically this is sort of "extra defensive stance", at a much higher cost (3.5 attack for 2 parry, instead of 3 for 3, and you also reduce your chances of rolling Tengwars.) My concern with this is that it makes "tanking" too effective against things like trolls. A woodman with a shield, skill of 4, fighting in the woods could have a Parry of 31. Still, maybe a "Turtle" stance could be fun.

Second wind
Roll Athletics against TN 14; Success: You regain up to 4 Endurance points (5 on great success, 6 or Heart rating on extraordinary success); can be used only once per encounter

What does "up to 4" mean? What determines how many points?

Command
Roll Battle vs. TN 10+highest Attribute ranking of foes; Success: Next round on of you companions can spend 1 extra success die on attack actions (2 companions on great success, 3 on extraordinary success) ; no Hero can spend more than 1 of these dice

Omg a Warlord. Run.

More seriously, trading an attack for a chance of giving more dice to an ally makes it a bad trade, unless for some reason you are unable to actually attack yourself.

Rearward Stance
Prepare Shot
Roll Awareness vs. TN 10+ Attribute ranking targeted foe; Success: Next round you can spend 1 extra success die (2 on great success, 3 on extraordinary success) on attack actions

Would this ever be used instead of the existing Prepared Shot?

Evasion
Roll Stealth vs. TN 10+highest Attribute ranking of foes; Success: Next round you can spend 1 extra success die (2 on great success, 3 on extraordinary success) on attack actions; (can also be used during opening volley)

As with Command and Prepare Shot, this maths out badly. Unless, possibly, if the only way you can hit is by rolling a Gandalf. But then they become abilities for people with low skill rather than high skill.

[ThePat]

I'd love to see a few more combat tasks get added, maybe 1 per stance. I think the goals of doing so should be to add "tactical complexity", meaning that it creates more genuine decisions for players, without obvious "right" answers. Also, no new combat task should replicate (or otherwise diminish the value of) existing abilities, virtues, blessings, etc. With that in mind here are some of my comments:

Thanks for your detailed thoughts. Will go through them one by one.

All out attack*
Add extra success die to melee attack, but lose Parry bonus (TN 6 to hit hero)

I could see this being an interesting trade-off when you're being attacked, but for heroes who are not being attacked (i.e., the fellowship is fighting a single adversary, who is targeting somebody else) then it's not really a decision: you would use this every time. If adversaries have initiative, or a house rule is used where adversaries declare targets after the heroes take their attacks, it would work better. Or, maybe best of all, using the house rule for trolls and other great opponents that they attack whoever just did the most damage to them. That would make this an extremely risky move, and thus very interesting.

I always assign enemies after players have declared their stances (and maneuvers) - sometimes just by randon roll. Did not realize that this is not RAW, but this houserule makes this move risky. Still a good option if you go against a single big foe and have a fellow in devensive stance to cover you.

Sweeping Blow*
If Hero is paired against 2 or more foes, he can attack all foes with one attack
Remove success dice equal to total number of foes (2 or 3); roll one attack with remaining dice
Each enemy is hit if attack result is greater than his TN (6+parry)

I'm not opposed to options for increasing the number of attacks per round (while being cognizant of the high cost of doing so with the Spear of the Last Alliance) but a few things here:
1) Because the Feat die gets rolled twice it might be mathematically advantageous to use this ability. I.e., if you attack one opponent your total roll averages 5.5 + (3.5 * skill). Against two opponents the average roll is ((2 * 5.5) + (3.5 * skill)) / 2.
2) Once you figure out the math, it's never a decision whether or not to use it. "Against any opponents with Parry below X, always use this."
3) I really, really, really don't like the language "sweeping" and "attack all foes with one attack". That sounds very video-gamish to me. I'd much rather fluff it as multiple attacks.

Here you have misinterpreted the maneuver. You do NOT roll an extra feat die. How did you come to that conclusion? You sacrifice 2 success dice (reducing your overall hit chance and the chance for extra damage) for the option of attacking multiple foes at once. Heros might use this when facing larger numbers of weaker opponents.

Distract Opponent
Roll Riddle or Stealth vs. TN 10+Attribute ranking of foe
Success: This enemy loses 2 Parry point (3 on great success, 4 on extraordinary success) for this and next combat round

An option to lower an adversary's defenses (and/or its attack) is a perennial favorite. Most of them have been designed to assist allies, though; I haven't yet seen one that lasts for 2 rounds, effectively letting the character who does it benefit from it. That's an interesting twist.

Might end up a bit too powerful, but up to now it works okay.

Twin strike*
Remove 2 success dies from attack roll; then split remaining success dice between two attacks; roll each attack with Feat die + respective number of success dice; Can be used to attack to enemies or one enemy twice

Same potential math issue as Sweeping Strike, and I think adds unnecessary complexity against one target. You are trading the chance of extra damage for the chance to hit twice, which is largely a wash except for the chance for a second pierce. I guess I'd rather just see a more direct way to either increase chance of pierce and/or increase Injury if you do pierce, that doesn't favor particular weapons.

Math is different from sweeping blow (see above). Might drop the option of attacking the same enemy twice. So it remains an option to attack 2 enemies at once, but with reduced chances to hit and to do extra damage.

Defensive Fighting
Reduce a number of success dice from your attack roll; your Parry increases by 2 for each success die

Mathematically this is sort of "extra defensive stance", at a much higher cost (3.5 attack for 2 parry, instead of 3 for 3, and you also reduce your chances of rolling Tengwars.) My concern with this is that it makes "tanking" too effective against things like trolls. A woodman with a shield, skill of 4, fighting in the woods could have a Parry of 31. Still, maybe a "Turtle" stance could be fun.

The fact that it indeed is an "extra defensive stance" is why I make it more "expensive" than the ususal 3:3 ration.

Second wind
Roll Athletics against TN 14; Success: You regain up to 4 Endurance points (5 on great success, 6 or Heart rating on extraordinary success); can be used only once per encounter

What does "up to 4" mean? What determines how many points?

You can oly recover the endurance lost in this combat - so if you only lost 2 points (but have been suffering from endurance loss before going into this combat), you only regain these 2. That's why it is "up to 4".

Command
Roll Battle vs. TN 10+highest Attribute ranking of foes; Success: Next round on of you companions can spend 1 extra success die on attack actions (2 companions on great success, 3 on extraordinary success) ; no Hero can spend more than 1 of these dice

Omg a Warlord. Run.

More seriously, trading an attack for a chance of giving more dice to an ally makes it a bad trade, unless for some reason you are unable to actually attack yourself.

My players like this maneuver, but I agree that it is too weak. Might increse the effect by 2 dice on each stage and allow each player to use up to 2 of these dice.

Rearward Stance
Prepare Shot
Roll Awareness vs. TN 10+ Attribute ranking targeted foe; Success: Next round you can spend 1 extra success die (2 on great success, 3 on extraordinary success) on attack actions

Would this ever be used instead of the existing Prepared Shot?

As stated in thes original post this replaces the called shot rules from RAW. Reason: Unified logic across all maneuvers. Again might increase the extra dice by 1 or 2 in order to make this more attractive.

Evasion
Roll Stealth vs. TN 10+highest Attribute ranking of foes; Success: Next round you can spend 1 extra success die (2 on great success, 3 on extraordinary success) on attack actions; (can also be used during opening volley)

As with Command and Prepare Shot, this maths out badly. Unless, possibly, if the only way you can hit is by rolling a Gandalf. But then they become abilities for people with low skill rather than high skill.

[/quote]

Again I agree that I might want to increase the number of bonus dice. My players up to now mostly use this during the opening volley phase instead of making a ranged attack (at least for heros with low ranged combat skill).

Again thanks for the feedback (also to the other replies) - I will see how to improve the attractiveness of some maneuvers as stated above.

Cheers,
ThePat

[Glorelendil]

Ah, I did misread the sweeping blow. Now I understand. (My aesthetic objection remains, that "sweeping blow" is too cinematic for my tastes, at least in this genre, but that's 100% personal preference.)

I also didn't think of doing the Warlord maneuver during opening volleys. Yes, that does make sense.

[Robin Smallburrow]

ThePat,

Did you use or tweak any of the previous fan suggestions on Combat Maneuvers? See my Fan Supplement for several - I have not got around to doing a 'comprehensive list' of these - maybe you can?

Robin S.

[ThePat]

ThePat,

Did you use or tweak any of the previous fan suggestions on Combat Maneuvers? See my Fan Supplement for several - I have not got around to doing a 'comprehensive list' of these - maybe you can?

Robin S.

Hi Robin,

I looked add various suggestions, but died not find a comprehensive list. I chose to do the list myself, so I can ensure that all maneuvers follow the same logic and do not seem like "good individual ideas cobbled together"

Best,
Pat

PS: Looked at you Fan Supplement - great work and good source for inspiration