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Falenthal wrote:I think the fact that a sling can easily break bones and such is better represented by a higher Injury than by a higher Edge. I'd leave Edge at G (not easy to get a direct impact in combat), but raise the Injury to 14, if you'd like to make slings a bit more deadly. A Reward for slings could be getting those metal bullets that might reduce Edge by 1, in addition to any other Quality (thus being able to lower the Edge by 2 in total).

As for cultures, I like the idea of Easterlings and Southron people using them in military formations.

Maybe the Edge of 'G' if only because the sling delivers a crushing blow instead of a cutting or piercing one. I'm not sure though about increasing the Injury, especially if I maintain that Sling-stones and bullets do different amounts of Injury.

The whole write-up is a bit of a compromise. Large Sling-stones should probably have the Damage of 5 and Injury of 14 (if not better), but with the shorter Range. I think that the weapon ranges in TOR are already extremely conservative and, in game-terms, the Range for a large Sling-stone and a small one should be essentially the same, reserving the greater Range for Sling-bullets.

Terisonen wrote:I'm wondering if a sling is not anachronic in Middle Earth... Since bow are widely available.

The sling isn't anachronistic in Modern Earth... and slingers versus Uzis and Galils are daily engagements.

The simple hand-sling is in daily use by insurgents throughout the Middle East and Africa.

Having studied it a bit - the bow is easier to use. It really should be a separate skill.
On the other hand, any moron can make an effective sling...

1. find 1-3m of string. Paracord is excellent; leather lacing works fine.
2. Find a sheet of 3-8 ounce soft leather (1.2-3.3mm thick), at least 5x12cm
3. trim leather into an oval, 10-15 cm long, and half as wide.
4. Divide string into two parts.
5. Fold the oval in half lengthwise
6. Use a whip knot to affix string to both ends of oval, making certain the initial loop is inside the fold.
7. Adjust length of strings to suit

Learning to cast and aim it is considerably harder than making it.
Staff sling is similar, except that one needs a loop on one end, and the other end gets affixed to the staff. And the staff sling is easier to use than the hand sling.

Bows are somewhat the opposite. Any idiot can learn to hit a hay-bale in an afternoon... but it takes particularly special skills to make a suitably dangerous bow. And arrows require additional skills to manufacture, plus time... time to straighten the wood, time to make the heads.

So slings are for those who have time to learn them... once learned, soft leather and a knife are all that's needed to make them. If you can buy a leather shoe, you can make a sling of it. A peasant's weapon.

aramis wrote:

Terisonen wrote:I'm wondering if a sling is not anachronic in Middle Earth... Since bow are widely available.

The sling isn't anachronistic in Modern Earth... and slingers versus Uzis and Galils are daily engagements.

The simple hand-sling is in daily use by insurgents throughout the Middle East and Africa.

Having studied it a bit - the bow is easier to use. It really should be a separate skill.
On the other hand, any moron can make an effective sling...

1. find 1-3m of string. Paracord is excellent; leather lacing works fine.
2. Find a sheet of 3-8 ounce soft leather (1.2-3.3mm thick), at least 5x12cm
3. trim leather into an oval, 10-15 cm long, and half as wide.
4. Divide string into two parts.
5. Fold the oval in half lengthwise
6. Use a whip knot to affix string to both ends of oval, making certain the initial loop is inside the fold.
7. Adjust length of strings to suit

Learning to cast and aim it is considerably harder than making it.
Staff sling is similar, except that one needs a loop on one end, and the other end gets affixed to the staff. And the staff sling is easier to use than the hand sling.

Bows are somewhat the opposite. Any idiot can learn to hit a hay-bale in an afternoon... but it takes particularly special skills to make a suitably dangerous bow. And arrows require additional skills to manufacture, plus time... time to straighten the wood, time to make the heads.

So slings are for those who have time to learn them... once learned, soft leather and a knife are all that's needed to make them. If you can buy a leather shoe, you can make a sling of it. A peasant's weapon.

I'm ok with that. Sling is hard to master, is not very deadly (I'm pretty sure he is nearly useless against a armored foe, even lightly) , as not a great rate of fire and it take place to throw a rock where a man with a bow can take rank by rank in a formation. So that's why it has disappear for military use.

And for making arrowhead, I have seen a Master Blacksmith at the castle of Castelnaud-La-Chapelle in Dordogne (France) making an arrowhead in less than... A twenty second to my amazment!

Now, I think it's a good idea to define Sling, since it will be a weapon of choice for Frugal culture: no ammo and really cheap. When you are as a boy a sheep herder, you have plenty of time to train

Just for flavour, the quote from "House of the Wolfings" Glor and I were talking about:

"Thus we ordered ourselves, and awaited a little while yet what the aliens should do; and presently a war-horn blew amongst them, and from each flank of their mailed footmen came forth a many bowmen and slingers and a band of horsemen; and drew within bowshot, the shooters in open array yet wisely, and so fell to on us, and the horsemen hung aback a little as yet.

"Their arrow-shot was of little avail, their bowmen fell fast before ours; but deadly was their sling-shot, and hurt and slew many and some even in our main battle; for they slung round leaden balls and not stones, and they aimed true and shot quick; and the men withal were so light and lithe, never still, but crouching and creeping and bounding here and there, that they were no easier to hit than coneys amidst of the fern, unless they were very nigh.

"Howbeit when this storm had endured a while, and we moved but little, and not an inch aback, and gave them shot for shot, then was another horn winded from amongst the aliens; and thereat the bowmen cast down their bows, and the slingers wound their slings about their heads, and they all came on with swords and short spears and feathered darts, running and leaping lustily, making for our flanks, and the horsemen set spurs to their horses and fell on in the very front of our folk like good and valiant men-at-arms.

Terisonen wrote: I'm ok with that. Sling is hard to master, is not very deadly (I'm pretty sure he is nearly useless against a armored foe, even lightly) , as not a great rate of fire and it take place to throw a rock where a man with a bow can take rank by rank in a formation. So that's why it has disappear for military use.

And for making arrowhead, I have seen a Master Blacksmith at the castle of Castelnaud-La-Chapelle in Dordogne (France) making an arrowhead in less than... A twenty second to my amazment!

Now, I think it's a good idea to define Sling, since it will be a weapon of choice for Frugal culture: no ammo and really cheap. When you are as a boy a sheep herder, you have plenty of time to train

I've seen a competent slinger put a golf ball through a 3/8" plywood sheet at 30 paces with a handsling. Through, as in "on the ground behind the sheet along with a bunch of splinters." With a copper jacketed lead sling bullet (2x 9mm slugs soldered together), he put it through from 100 paces.

Me, I MIGHT hit your formation... He could routinely hit a man sized target at 100 paces.

They are plenty dangerous.
We're talking up to about 100 m/s peak at launch; probably 50+ at range. And a good slinger can easily lob 15g to 30g slugs at those speeds... At 100 paces, his time from release to impact was under 1 second; his velocity had to be in excess of 100m/s. Call it 90m, and round up to the second... 15g bullet, 62 joules. on a roughly 0.9 x 2.0 cm oval.

I've seen a magician (the Las Vegas type, not the Gandalf type) stick playing cards into watermelon from 20 feet.

So what? Slingers had disappeared from field of war since very long and for good reason... All you can say for slingers can be also say for bowmen. Not that slinger where not effective, but because bow where more easy to use. 'An experienced longbowman could loose 20 shots per minute' albeit not for a long time. This is not to say that we cannot use sling in play in Middle Earth, but to think about it.

I went back and tweaked the original entry a bit, slightly increasing Damage (with the assumption of fairly heavy Sling-stones as the norm) and adding the notation that slings can be used with virtually any hand-held object that can also be thrown for any distance.

If nothing else, I think we need the sling, as a military weapon including the use of lead or iron shot, as an option for new adversaries, new monsters and possibly even new Heroic Cultures as part of a well-rounded world. And also just because some players would like the option of using it.

If the distinction between lead shot and stones is for the purpose of equipping adversaries differently that's fine, but from the point of view of player-heroes what would be the incentive to ever use stones?

I guess you could make the encumbrance of the lead shot higher, to represent the fact that you have to lug ammo with you instead of picking stuff up off the ground.

But just aesthetically I hate it.

Glorelendil wrote:If the distinction between lead shot and stones is for the purpose of equipping adversaries differently that's fine, but from the point of view of player-heroes what would be the incentive to ever use stones?

I guess you could make the encumbrance of the lead shot higher, to represent the fact that you have to lug ammo with you instead of picking stuff up off the ground.

But just aesthetically I hate it.

Well, the RAW work against this, but stones are simply more readily available than shot. A Wild Hobbit would likely have never encountered lead bullets, but would be very familiar with river-stones. And the sling in general provides an ability to hurl objects farther than a person could normally throw, which could come in useful at unexpected moments of creative problem-solving.

I actually never factored ammo into the Encumbrance, as arrows don't seem to factor into the Encumbrance for Bows and Great bows. If I am mistaken In this then the Encumbrance for Sling might be increased to 1. My reading, though, is that an ammo pouch or a quiver counts as part of a Hero's traveling gear.