New Weapon: Sling

[Glorelendil]

If the distinction between lead shot and stones is for the purpose of equipping adversaries differently that's fine, but from the point of view of player-heroes what would be the incentive to ever use stones?

I guess you could make the encumbrance of the lead shot higher, to represent the fact that you have to lug ammo with you instead of picking stuff up off the ground.

But just aesthetically I hate it.

Well, the RAW work against this, but stones are simply more readily available than shot. A Wild Hobbit would likely have never encountered lead bullets, but would be very familiar with river-stones. And the sling in general provides an ability to hurl objects farther than a person could normally throw, which could come in useful at unexpected moments of creative problem-solving.

I actually never factored ammo into the Encumbrance, as arrows don't seem to factor into the Encumbrance for Bows and Great bows. If I am mistaken In this then the Encumbrance for Sling might be increased to 1. My reading, though, is that an ammo pouch or a quiver counts as part of a Hero's traveling gear.

Look at it this way: if there were stone-tipped arrows and steel-tipped arrows, would your character ever use the stone-tipped variety? You'd have to make it a distinct skill (like bow vs. great bow) but that would likely result in no small amount of player ire. "What? Just because I'm used to using stones I don't know how to use shot?"

Sure, from a realism point of view you could limit lead shot by availability and cost, except there's no mechanism in TOR for enforcing that because we don't track ammunition. It would have to become LM fiat. "Sorry...you're out of lead shot and there's no more." "When did that happen?" "Umm...when you made that Hunting roll during the Journey. I decided."

Again, if you use one of the house rules for ammunition you could rule that instead of being "out" of ammunition you just have to switch to stones until you reach a suitable settlement.

[Otaku-sempai]

"What? Just because I'm used to using stones I don't know how to use shot?"

That never enters into the equation. You are assuming that the slinger from the frugal culture has had access to the metal bullets in the first place. If he/she has never had a chance to acquire lead or iron shot then Sling-stones is all he/she has. You can't run out of what you have never had. If/when that changes then it becomes another matter. Also, not all Loremasters abide by RAW ammunition rules.

Keep in mind that if Slings were ever commonly used in warfare in north-western Middle-earth then they have fallen out of favor long ago. A hero who uses a Sling might have to encounter a foreign slinger before he ever even sees iron or lead shot.

[Glorelendil]

"What? Just because I'm used to using stones I don't know how to use shot?"

That never enters into the equation. You are assuming that the slinger from the frugal culture has had access to the metal bullets in the first place.

Yes because that's RAW: players get to choose any gear they have the skill to use. A character from a frugal culture can have a Chain Hauberk if they so desire.

[Otaku-sempai]

Yes because that's RAW: players get to choose any gear they have the skill to use. A character from a frugal culture can have a Chain Hauberk if they so desire.

Not if the Loremaster disallows it for the reason that it simply is not available. You can't purchase what is not available for sale. If no one locally is using Sling-bullets then no one is going to be producing, importing or selling them.

Our hypothetical Wild Hobbit has never seen or even heard of Sling-bullets. Until he encounters them or conceives of them himself, he is only going to be using Sling-stones. Once he first acquires Sling-bullets, whether he finds some or has them custom-forged, he can have all of them that he wants (Loremaster permitting). But not before then.

[Glorelendil]

Doesn't sound like TOR, but ok.

[Otaku-sempai]

Doesn't sound like TOR, but ok.

I'm not sure that the ammunition rules are intended to be quite that generous. I think that they need to be limited by common sense and the needs of the story.

[Glorelendil]

Doesn't sound like TOR, but ok.

I'm not sure that the ammunition rules are intended to be quite that generous. I think that they need to be limited by common sense and the needs of the story.

I didn't mean counting ammunition (although ammunition types also opens up a whole can of worms with counting: you would have to count ammo not just during key scenes like extended battles, but constantly).

I was referring to the insertion of restricted gear into the game. That's the D&D approach: you can't afford Plate Armor as a level 1 character; you have to save enough gold to buy it. TOR avoids penalizing starting characters for coming from poorer backgrounds. Would you let the Barding have lead shot, but not the Woodman? That's the part that doesn't seem TOR-like.

Unless you're talking about making lead shot the equivalent of a cultural Reward that has to be earned, which would be odd for other reasons.

[Otaku-sempai]

Doesn't sound like TOR, but ok.

I'm not sure that the ammunition rules are intended to be quite that generous. I think that they need to be limited by common sense and the needs of the story.

I didn't mean counting ammunition (although ammunition types also opens up a whole can of worms with counting: you would have to count ammo not just during key scenes like extended battles, but constantly).

I was referring to the insertion of restricted gear into the game. That's the D&D approach: you can't afford Plate Armor as a level 1 character; you have to save enough gold to buy it. TOR avoids penalizing starting characters for coming from poorer backgrounds. Would you let the Barding have lead shot, but not the Woodman? That's the part that doesn't seem TOR-like.

You don't quite understand what I mean. It isn't just a matter of money, but availability. You can't find something that is simply not available in the region you inhabit. Rocks are easy to come by, sling-shot not so much. 5000 years earlier or 1000 miles to the East or the South, that might be different. Just as a Loremaster is not likely going to allow you to find a trained warhorse available for purchase in Bree.

Unless you're talking about making lead shot the equivalent of a cultural Reward that has to be earned, which would be odd for other reasons.

No, but you might need to find a smith capable of casting the shot for you before you can have it. Or you might need to find some in an old burial mound to realize that it is something that might be a good idea to have.

[Glorelendil]

Ok. But couldn't the same argument be made about Mail Hauberk? In fact, doesn't your argument apply even more to Mail Hauberk? I mean, lead shot requires simply melting lead and pouring it into a mold. That's practically stone age compared to making chain armour.

Yet the game very explicitly makes Mail Hauberk available, for free, to any starting character who wants it.

And it's a slippery slope. Realistically some type of sling shot is more effective than others; I get that. But the same is true for all weapons: higher quality steel and better forging makes for a more effective blade. Should Woodmen and Beornings (who presumably do fairly primitive metalwork on their own) start with inferior blades, then when they travel to Erebor or Gondor they could upgrade to better ones?

Or does that feel like a game that rhymes with Truncheons and Flagons?

(Warhorse availability is covered by entirely different rules than arms and armor are.)

[Otaku-sempai]

In terms of sophistication you're right, Sling-bullets are Bronze-age level tech. As a Loremaster, if you want to allow Slings in the first place and make lead or iron shot available to anyone who wants it, that is entirely your privilege. And there are certainly several ways of justifying it: the bullets were liberated from a traveler; or recovered from an old tomb; or are hand-me-downs from ancient times; etc.

I merely suggest a more realistic approach. Btw, I've never associated realism with D&D.