Time To Think about Oath
Time To Think about Oath
I was musing about a strong idea in Middle Earth: Oaths.
There are at least three Oaths who are poised to have great effect in Middle Earth: Fëanor, Eorl's and Isildur. One was to shape the Rohirrim people, and other to made vanish another people, Daen Coentis. Not to say Fëanor one. So at a individual level, Oath taken by King to their subject have large effect. Alternatively, one in ME can made an Individual Oath. That kind of thing are not mere words spell in air: they are powerful thing to summon and they can crush you, your relative and even have the scope of entire culturs.
That said, why not thinking about Oath in term of play to give advantage or disadvantage to the player? Oath are running strong in Tolkien book. We can subdivise in two type: Individual and collective. What kind of proposition have you to propose?
There are at least three Oaths who are poised to have great effect in Middle Earth: Fëanor, Eorl's and Isildur. One was to shape the Rohirrim people, and other to made vanish another people, Daen Coentis. Not to say Fëanor one. So at a individual level, Oath taken by King to their subject have large effect. Alternatively, one in ME can made an Individual Oath. That kind of thing are not mere words spell in air: they are powerful thing to summon and they can crush you, your relative and even have the scope of entire culturs.
That said, why not thinking about Oath in term of play to give advantage or disadvantage to the player? Oath are running strong in Tolkien book. We can subdivise in two type: Individual and collective. What kind of proposition have you to propose?
Last edited by Terisonen on Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Time To Think about Oath
Don't forget the example of the Dead Men of Dunharrow: An entire army cursed beyond life because they broke their oaths.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."
Re: Time To Think about Oath
It's Isildur Oath with the Daen Coentis.
I think you can put war between Dwarves and Azog in the same realm, though.
I think you can put war between Dwarves and Azog in the same realm, though.
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Re: Time To Think about Oath
Was that an oath? Or did he bring a curse upon them after they broke their own oaths? We do also have the Oath of Elendil that Aragorn recited upon his coronation:Terisonen wrote:It's Isildur Oath with the Daen Coentis.
Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn’ Ambar-metta!
'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place I will abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.'
Yes, perhaps.I think you can put war between Dwarves and Azog in the same realm, though.
Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."
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Re: Time To Think about Oath
A minor effect I use, is to allow players to make an oath or pledge to acomplish something, say "I'll bring back your son, whos gone missing in Mirkwood..."
If he is successful +1 Hope. If not +1 Shadow
If he is successful +1 Hope. If not +1 Shadow
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Re: Time To Think about Oath
I thought I'd read that rules for Oath would be included in the Horse-Lords supplement. Maybe they will be in the adventure supplement Oaths of the Riddermark (as the Holding rules can be found in the Darkening campaign).
But ever since, I've also given a thought on how this rules could work. There's a quote by Gimli and Elrond that, I think, summarizes exactly how Oaths should be represented in game. I haven't come up with any wonderful mechanic for it, but there are some aspects I think should be included:
Gain X extra Hope points that can only be used for acts aimed at fulfilling your Oath.
As with Traits, the player should invoke his Oath and explain how the act (skill test) he is doing relates to it. The LM and the rest of players can decide if it makes sense and the Hope point can be spent. The LM has the last word.
How much should/can this X points be? This could be dependant on different factors: on the greatness of the Oath, for example. As happens with Shadow points -when the LM decides that some situations might grant only 1 point, while others grant 5-, the player and LM could decide how many extra Hope points is the Oath worth. Swearing to a mother to bring back her son from a goblin's den that is located in a nearby mountain coulg grant 1 extra Hope point. But "vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession.", as Fëanor and his sons did, should grant many more points... and carry greater consequences.
Also, powerful individuals seem to be able to swear greater Oaths (Fëanor, Elendil and Elendil's heir). Probably the maximum amount of Hope points that can be gained should be somehow limited by the Valour and/or Wisdom score of the Oathtaker or the "Oathwitness" (as was Isildur). A starting point could be that the maximum number of Hope points that can be gained are the sum of the Valour and Wisdom scores.
The first quote from Gimli and Elrond specifically says that an Oath might "strengthen quaking heart". I've related this to gaining extra Hope points, knowing also that the Hope score is related to the Heart Attribute. But other effects might be also contemplated, taking the quote more literally.
For example, increasing the Basic Heart Score of the Oathtaker by a certain amount only for Attribute bonuses (i.e. when spending Hope points) related to the Oath. Remember that Heart is the Attribute for Fear and Corruption tests. The increase could be equal or be related to the Valour score. The cultures with the lowest Heart score (Dwarves, Elves and Dunledings) could be the ones with more tendency to swear Oaths. Also, those individuals that choose Valour over Wisdom would also favour them (great warriors and war-like cutures, like the eóthéod and, again, dwarves, noldor and dunledings). For a Hobbit, swearing an Oath should be of little benefit, for example. That would explain why Gimli was so eager to swear an Oath to the Fellowship of the Ring, while Elrond, knowing the effect in Shadow increase it would have for the Hobbits, discouraged it. This kind of bonus would stick with the Oathtaker as long the Oath is not fulfilled, while the Hope bonus will dwindle with time, even if the Oath is still "running on". Both options could be ok, in my opinion. Or even a third way could be found, where the extra Hope points are refilled at the end of each year (each Year's End Fellowship phase).
2) But then, there are the bad and dangerous consequences of swearing an Oath, and it should relate to gaining Shadow points.
A) Gaining lots of Shadow points if the Oath is failed or broken. For starters, I'd go with double than the number of Hope points that were gained. The unspent extra Hope points would be lost, of course. In fact, it could even be ruled that the same amount of extra Hope points that were gained should be returned. This could lead to a character losing all his Hope points. Or even that the unspent extra Hope points are lost AND a certain amount of your own Hope points, too.
B) Gaining one automatic Shadow point for each year (Year's End Fellowship phase) that the Oath is not fulfilled. That is important, as it means that the obsession with the Oath grows stronger (and is more dangerous) each year, until a simple Heal Corruption is not enough to overcome it and the Oathtaker is either forced to fulfill the Oath, or to break it and face the grim consequences. I'm convinced that swearing an Oath should have some kind of exponential danger, so that it impels the Oathtaker into action.
A note on this: Some Oaths, like that of Eorl or the dunledings, could be special in that they swear to act in a certain way if something else happens (go to war if called for aid). In these cases, the consequences of swearing an Oth (both the extra Hope and the yearly Shadow points gained) should only be "activated" once the trigger appears. If the Oath is not answered as it was sworn, it counts as an Oathbreaking with all its consequences, without the gaining of any Hope point.
Particulary for dwarves, the Stiff Neck of the Dwarves Virtue allows them to grow stronger the older the Oaths become unfulfilled. Dwarves are to be more feared the older their grudge or sworn revenge is!
Other concerns:
- The place where the Oath is sworn.
It seems that every Oath takes place in a special geographical location. I don't know what this should imply in game mechanics, but it is an important part, at least for roleplaying pourpouses. At least we should say that the place is where the Oath is linked to. Earth is a creation of the Song, and maybe is the way to link the Oath with the Creation and, therefore, with the Valar and Eru himself. If the Oath is broken, the Oathbreaker will be tied in some way to that place. The Dead Men of Dunharrow are a good example, but I don't have others.
- Dying trying to fulfill an Oath vs. Breaking an Oath.
The dunledings broke their Oath, and were condemned to turn into restless spirits tied to the place where they swore that Oath.
The sons of Fëanor (as far as I know) didn't break the Oath; they died trying. Therefore, they didn't turn into wraiths tied to the high court of the King upon the summit of Túna.
The rohirrim rode into the Fields of Pelennor thinking that their forces wouldn't be enough to help Gondor destroy Sauron's forces. They had to choose between breaking the Oath and becoming a condemned people, damned to perish as the dunledings did (and maybe be tied to Elendil's tomb), or die trying.
And we know what they chose :
Maybe there could be a difference between:
1) swearing an Oath yourself ("I swear upon my sword to bring your song back from the clutches of the goblins!")
2) swearing in group for a certain goal ("We'll go to Mordor with you!"). This could mean that the extra Hope points are added to the Fellowship pool, instead of to each individual, and it's the groups goal what has to be invoked. Each hero/brother/member of the group that leaves it won't benefit from the Fellowship pool anymore.
3)or the Oath of a whole culture, made by its king ("This vow shall descend to my heirs, all such as may come after me in our new land, and let them keep it in faith unbroken"), which would mean that every hero belonging to that culture would be tied to that Oath.
- Oaths unfulfilled by the fathers descend to their heirs.
If a newly created hero wants to benefit from the Heroic Heritage (Revised Book p.282) bonuses of a retired hero that had an unfilfilled Oath, then he has to inherit the Oath also (as if taken anew).
But ever since, I've also given a thought on how this rules could work. There's a quote by Gimli and Elrond that, I think, summarizes exactly how Oaths should be represented in game. I haven't come up with any wonderful mechanic for it, but there are some aspects I think should be included:
1) It should play with the Hope and Shadow mechanic. A first point should read something like this:'The others go with him as free companions, to help him on his way. You may tarry, or come back, or turn aside into other paths, as chance allows. The further you go, the less easy will it be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will. For you do not yet know the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road.’
‘Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens,’ said Gimli.
‘Maybe,’ said Elrond, ‘but let him not vow to walk in the dark, who has not seen the nightfall.’
‘Yet sworn word may strengthen quaking heart,’ said Gimli.
‘Or break it,’ said Elrond.
Gain X extra Hope points that can only be used for acts aimed at fulfilling your Oath.
As with Traits, the player should invoke his Oath and explain how the act (skill test) he is doing relates to it. The LM and the rest of players can decide if it makes sense and the Hope point can be spent. The LM has the last word.
How much should/can this X points be? This could be dependant on different factors: on the greatness of the Oath, for example. As happens with Shadow points -when the LM decides that some situations might grant only 1 point, while others grant 5-, the player and LM could decide how many extra Hope points is the Oath worth. Swearing to a mother to bring back her son from a goblin's den that is located in a nearby mountain coulg grant 1 extra Hope point. But "vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession.", as Fëanor and his sons did, should grant many more points... and carry greater consequences.
Also, powerful individuals seem to be able to swear greater Oaths (Fëanor, Elendil and Elendil's heir). Probably the maximum amount of Hope points that can be gained should be somehow limited by the Valour and/or Wisdom score of the Oathtaker or the "Oathwitness" (as was Isildur). A starting point could be that the maximum number of Hope points that can be gained are the sum of the Valour and Wisdom scores.
The first quote from Gimli and Elrond specifically says that an Oath might "strengthen quaking heart". I've related this to gaining extra Hope points, knowing also that the Hope score is related to the Heart Attribute. But other effects might be also contemplated, taking the quote more literally.
For example, increasing the Basic Heart Score of the Oathtaker by a certain amount only for Attribute bonuses (i.e. when spending Hope points) related to the Oath. Remember that Heart is the Attribute for Fear and Corruption tests. The increase could be equal or be related to the Valour score. The cultures with the lowest Heart score (Dwarves, Elves and Dunledings) could be the ones with more tendency to swear Oaths. Also, those individuals that choose Valour over Wisdom would also favour them (great warriors and war-like cutures, like the eóthéod and, again, dwarves, noldor and dunledings). For a Hobbit, swearing an Oath should be of little benefit, for example. That would explain why Gimli was so eager to swear an Oath to the Fellowship of the Ring, while Elrond, knowing the effect in Shadow increase it would have for the Hobbits, discouraged it. This kind of bonus would stick with the Oathtaker as long the Oath is not fulfilled, while the Hope bonus will dwindle with time, even if the Oath is still "running on". Both options could be ok, in my opinion. Or even a third way could be found, where the extra Hope points are refilled at the end of each year (each Year's End Fellowship phase).
2) But then, there are the bad and dangerous consequences of swearing an Oath, and it should relate to gaining Shadow points.
I'd say this should happen in two ways:This vow shall descend to my heirs, all such as may come after me in our new land, and let them keep it in faith unbroken, lest the Shadow fall upon them and they become accursed
A) Gaining lots of Shadow points if the Oath is failed or broken. For starters, I'd go with double than the number of Hope points that were gained. The unspent extra Hope points would be lost, of course. In fact, it could even be ruled that the same amount of extra Hope points that were gained should be returned. This could lead to a character losing all his Hope points. Or even that the unspent extra Hope points are lost AND a certain amount of your own Hope points, too.
B) Gaining one automatic Shadow point for each year (Year's End Fellowship phase) that the Oath is not fulfilled. That is important, as it means that the obsession with the Oath grows stronger (and is more dangerous) each year, until a simple Heal Corruption is not enough to overcome it and the Oathtaker is either forced to fulfill the Oath, or to break it and face the grim consequences. I'm convinced that swearing an Oath should have some kind of exponential danger, so that it impels the Oathtaker into action.
A note on this: Some Oaths, like that of Eorl or the dunledings, could be special in that they swear to act in a certain way if something else happens (go to war if called for aid). In these cases, the consequences of swearing an Oth (both the extra Hope and the yearly Shadow points gained) should only be "activated" once the trigger appears. If the Oath is not answered as it was sworn, it counts as an Oathbreaking with all its consequences, without the gaining of any Hope point.
In this quote we see how Thorin uses all his Fellowship Undertakings to Heal Corruption with Craft tests in a Sanctuary. And probably he has spent all his extra Hope points gained by the Oath...The years lengthened. The embers in the heart of Thorin grew hot again, as he brooded on the wrongs of his House and the vengeance upon the Dragon that he had inherited. He thought of weapons and armies and alliances, as his great hammer rang in his forge; but the armies were dispersed and the alliances broken and the axes of his people were few; and a great anger without hope burned him as he smote the red iron on the anvil.
Particulary for dwarves, the Stiff Neck of the Dwarves Virtue allows them to grow stronger the older the Oaths become unfulfilled. Dwarves are to be more feared the older their grudge or sworn revenge is!
Other concerns:
- The place where the Oath is sworn.
It seems that every Oath takes place in a special geographical location. I don't know what this should imply in game mechanics, but it is an important part, at least for roleplaying pourpouses. At least we should say that the place is where the Oath is linked to. Earth is a creation of the Song, and maybe is the way to link the Oath with the Creation and, therefore, with the Valar and Eru himself. If the Oath is broken, the Oathbreaker will be tied in some way to that place. The Dead Men of Dunharrow are a good example, but I don't have others.
- Dying trying to fulfill an Oath vs. Breaking an Oath.
The dunledings broke their Oath, and were condemned to turn into restless spirits tied to the place where they swore that Oath.
The sons of Fëanor (as far as I know) didn't break the Oath; they died trying. Therefore, they didn't turn into wraiths tied to the high court of the King upon the summit of Túna.
The rohirrim rode into the Fields of Pelennor thinking that their forces wouldn't be enough to help Gondor destroy Sauron's forces. They had to choose between breaking the Oath and becoming a condemned people, damned to perish as the dunledings did (and maybe be tied to Elendil's tomb), or die trying.
And we know what they chose :
Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!
- Individual vs. Group vs. Cultural Oath'Here is the mid-point of the Kingdom of the South, and here shall the memorial of Elendil the Faithful abide in the keeping of the Valar, while the Kingdom endures. This hill shall be a hallow, and let no man disturb its peace and silence, unless he be an heir of Elendil.” I have brought you here, so that the oaths here taken may seem of deepest solemnity to ourselves and to our heirs upon either side.'
Maybe there could be a difference between:
1) swearing an Oath yourself ("I swear upon my sword to bring your song back from the clutches of the goblins!")
2) swearing in group for a certain goal ("We'll go to Mordor with you!"). This could mean that the extra Hope points are added to the Fellowship pool, instead of to each individual, and it's the groups goal what has to be invoked. Each hero/brother/member of the group that leaves it won't benefit from the Fellowship pool anymore.
3)or the Oath of a whole culture, made by its king ("This vow shall descend to my heirs, all such as may come after me in our new land, and let them keep it in faith unbroken"), which would mean that every hero belonging to that culture would be tied to that Oath.
- Oaths unfulfilled by the fathers descend to their heirs.
If a newly created hero wants to benefit from the Heroic Heritage (Revised Book p.282) bonuses of a retired hero that had an unfilfilled Oath, then he has to inherit the Oath also (as if taken anew).
The embers in the heart of Thorin grew hot again, as he brooded on the wrongs of his House and the vengeance upon the Dragon that he had inherited.
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Re: Time To Think about Oath
Then there are the possible consequences of pledging an oath by or upon a being or object of evil nature, as Sméagol does in The Two Towers:
I'm not sure, though, how this should effect the game mechanics. Anyone?'Would you commit your promise to that, Sméagol? It will hold you. But it is more treacherous than you are. It may twist your words. Beware!'
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."
Re: Time To Think about Oath
Good point!Otaku-sempai wrote:possible consequences of pledging an oath by or upon a being or object of evil nature,
I'll try to relate it to my drafted house-rule:
It could be related to the point that highlights that the place the Oath is sworn could have some consequences.
On this light, I would say that swearing an Oath in a sacred/holy place or over a blessed object (Narsil, for example) allows to reduce the number of Shadow points gained each year (but not those gained in case of an oathbreak).
Swearing on a blighted place or on a cursed object allow to increase the number of maximum Hope points gained, but also increases the Shadow points gained each year.
Re: Time To Think about Oath
While we have the exact Oaths sworn by Fëanor and by Eorl to Cirion, do we have somewhere the words used by the Dunledings' ancestors at the Stone of Erech? I can't find any writings on it.
Besides, there's a nice article about Oaths invoking Eru (the greatest Oath available) in AskMiddleEarth:
http://askmiddlearth.tumblr.com/post/79 ... e-dunedain
Besides, there's a nice article about Oaths invoking Eru (the greatest Oath available) in AskMiddleEarth:
http://askmiddlearth.tumblr.com/post/79 ... e-dunedain
Re: Time To Think about Oath
It's been a coincidence, but I'm very slowly reading the "History of Middle-Earth" volumes that explain how the Lord of the Rings was written. Just now, I've read in the War of the Ring volume the drafts for "XII The Last Debate" chapter.Falenthal wrote:While we have the exact Oaths sworn by Fëanor and by Eorl to Cirion, do we have somewhere the words used by the Dunledings' ancestors at the Stone of Erech? I can't find any writings on it.
Here, in the first page, there are a few lines of the Oath sworn by the last king of the dark hillmen to Isildur and Anárion. This is a draft by Tolkien, and I've got the spanish version of the book, so forgive me for any inconsistencies:
"[The Stone of Erech] was a black stone, according to legend brought from Númenor, placed to signal the meeting place of Isildur and Anárion with the last king of the dark Hill-men, who swore fidelity to the sons of Elendil, promising to help them and their heirs forever, "even though Death may take us"."
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