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Finrod Felagund wrote:
Traps? Obstacles? Rockfalls? Wells in the middle of rooms? All need a lookout. Probably best not to change too much of the core RAW IMO.

Hmm...but is that Awareness or Search? (Or even the Scout's job.)

The only other extensive underground environment I could think of were Shelob's tunnels

My impression is that Shelob's tunnels are not extensive enough to be a "Journey". I would think it would be more like a "dungeon" (in the D&D sense). How long did it take Sam to traverse them? I wouldn't guess longer than an hour or two.

My mistake on previous iterations of these rules was to try to design something that encompassed both underground Journeys and ad hoc dungeon-crawling.

Finrod Felagund wrote:Glorelendil

BTW you listed some environments in a previous post "Dwarven mansions, orcish tunnels, natural caves, mines, Roots of the Earth, etc".

Another one would be a name for the caverns created by Dunlendings in the Dark Years (i.e. Paths of the Dead). The only other extensive underground environment I could think of were Shelob's tunnels but I expect that was a mixture of natural caves and orcish tunnels.

Speaking of Orkish tunnels, I seem to remember reading that the goblins had extensive tunnel systems in the Grey Mountains that allowed them to travel most of the way to Lonely Mountain underground to avoid detection.

Glorelendil wrote:

Finrod Felagund wrote:
Traps? Obstacles? Rockfalls? Wells in the middle of rooms? All need a lookout. Probably best not to change too much of the core RAW IMO.

Hmm...but is that Awareness or Search? (Or even the Scout's job.)

My gut feeling is that anything to do with route-finding is the Scout's job (Explore skill) whilst anything that is about ensuring no other type of harm is the Look-out's job (awareness). So you come to a forked path - it's the Scout's job to choose the branch to go down. The Look-out leads the way and suddenly stops at a chasm in the path. Just my 0.5p.

Finrod Felagund wrote:

Glorelendil wrote:

Finrod Felagund wrote:
Traps? Obstacles? Rockfalls? Wells in the middle of rooms? All need a lookout. Probably best not to change too much of the core RAW IMO.

Hmm...but is that Awareness or Search? (Or even the Scout's job.)

My gut feeling is that anything to do with route-finding is the Scout's job (Explore skill) whilst anything that is about ensuring no other type of harm is the Look-out's job (awareness). So you come to a forked path - it's the Scout's job to choose the branch to go down. The Look-out leads the way and suddenly stops at a chasm in the path. Just my 0.5p.

Oh, interesting. I think of the Scout as somebody who ranges a bit ahead of the party, checking out tunnels and caves before the rest of the party follows him.

Conundrums.

Glorelendil wrote: Oh, interesting. I think of the Scout as somebody who ranges a bit ahead of the party, checking out tunnels and caves before the rest of the party follows him

Sorry - looking at the journey supplement I think you are right. Note that this supplement does have some tunnels hazards you can crib from.

Glorelendil wrote:Oh, interesting. I think of the Scout as somebody who ranges a bit ahead of the party, checking out tunnels and caves before the rest of the party follows him.

Conundrums.

Good point, although in an underground environment I do not think that the Scout would want to venture too far ahead.

Otaku-sempai wrote:

Glorelendil wrote:Oh, interesting. I think of the Scout as somebody who ranges a bit ahead of the party, checking out tunnels and caves before the rest of the party follows him.

Conundrums.

Good point, although in an underground environment I do not think that the Scout would want to venture too far ahead.

Agreed...I would think the difference would be that outdoors the scout might range ahead by hours, leaving signs for his companions to follow, whereas underground the scout would venture ahead in distances measured in yards, and would frequently return to report back and try other options.

So I'm still left with this conundrum that the Lookout role is underutilized underground because you just can't see very far, and kind of the only thing you would look out for would be adversaries. Aboveground lookouts can get into trouble climbing trees or rocks to get a vantage point, but underground that wouldn't be necessary.

Another option, instead of inventing new roles, might be to just eliminate the Lookout role. So just Guide, Scout, and Huntsman. Then have more "All Companions" hazards that use Search or Awareness. That sort of makes sense to me, because all companions would participate in keeping an eye (and ear) out for both dangers and supplies.

The way I see it, the role of the Look-out Man (Men) doesn't change except that the other senses become as important (or more so) than sight. Hazard episodes for the Look-out might include dangerous cave-dwelling creatures, unexpected chasms, pits, rock-falls, cave-ins, side-tunnels, booby-traps, ambushes, even underground lakes or streams. It is easy for companions to become separated in the dark or for them to stumble upon Hazards with no warning. The Look-out's Awareness can be very important in preventing sudden disaster.

Otaku-sempai wrote:The way I see it, the role of the Look-out Man (Men) doesn't change except that the other senses become as important (or more so) than sight. Hazard episodes for the Look-out might include dangerous cave-dwelling creatures, unexpected chasms, pits, rock-falls, cave-ins, side-tunnels, booby-traps, ambushes, even underground lakes or streams. It is easy for companions to become separated in the dark or for them to stumble upon Hazards with no warning. The Look-out's Awareness can be very important in preventing sudden disaster.

The majority of those would require the Look-out to be ahead of the Scout...

Glorelendil wrote:The majority of those would require the Look-out to be ahead of the Scout...

Or just beside the Scout, but not all of them. The Look-out might hear or feel the rumblings of an imminent cave-in or rock-fall before it happens. A colony of bats (or other Hazard) might emerge from a side-tunnel while the party is passing it. And other events could happen when the company is encamped. The Look-out might not be able to see far, but his/her other senses can compensate--especially if he/she is a Dwarf.