Scrollreader's House Rules

[Deadmanwalking]

Having advocated several of the proposed fixes in the Deadly Archery thread, I feel the need to note that I did so before examining the math in sufficient detail.

After doing some actual math-based analysis, I've since come to the conclusion that adding anything that really ups Injury (either in reality or effectively) to Deadly Archery is a bad idea. A Wood-Elf using the other available Virtues and Rewards is already on par with combatants of every other sort, with the sole exception of those using a Great Spear or Great Bow vs. Great Orcs or Trolls (and nobody is equal to those two specific builds vs. those foes). Adding blanket bonuses to increase their effectiveness thus boosts them to the point where they are the single most effective and powerful build in the game by a pretty solid margin. That's...probably not a great plan.

That being the case, these days I'm more inclined to leaving its current effects and also having it ignore all environmental or range penalties on archery at all times. Makes it more useful without being overpowering.

[Scrollreader]

I've read the Deadly Archery thread front to back (it's where I got my original rule), but what was it that broke the parity? The extra volley from the reward bow? Because, the way it seems to me, the Greatbow archers already have the Elf on damage (via Shepherd's Bow or Fierce Shot) and a +2 to damage and injury DC from using a Greatbow. And the hobbit just crits like crazy with Fair Shot and a Keen bow.

Also, I do wonder about how Made In Anvil Way will affect things, as it seems to reinforce the viability of called shots vs the hope expenditure for Stinging Arrow.

[Falenthal]

Nothing will ever make an elven archer too powerful.
-Legolas, The Fellowship of the Ring.

[Deadmanwalking]

I've read the Deadly Archery thread front to back (it's where I got my original rule), but what was it that broke the parity? The extra volley from the reward bow? Because, the way it seems to me, the Greatbow archers already have the Elf on damage (via Shepherd's Bow or Fierce Shot) and a +2 to damage and injury DC from using a Greatbow. And the hobbit just crits like crazy with Fair Shot and a Keen bow.

Yep, it's the Woodland Bow. It really and sincerely is just that good.

And even with Fair Shot, a Hobbit winds up only on par with an Elf of Mirkwood with their existing stuff (or most other character builds), not better. As my analysis in the Deadly Archery thread demonstrates, IMO. And, just to be fair, I just did a bit of math trying out Keen bows (replacing either Grievous or Bow of the North Downs), and determined that even with a Keen bow, Called Shots are better, and that either of the other possibilities is better in isolation than Keen is.

Ditto a Woodman or Barding...on everything without Great Size. Great Size stuff requires a Great Spear or Great Bow wielder to take down quickly (or spending a whole crap load of Hope on Stinging Arrow), but nobody using any other weapon does on par to those weapon choices, so the Elf is in the same boat as all Dwarves, all Great Axe or Long Sword wielders, and everyone who uses a one-handed weapon, which is not exactly doing too badly.

Also, I do wonder about how Made In Anvil Way will affect things, as it seems to reinforce the viability of called shots vs the hope expenditure for Stinging Arrow.

This is a fair point and I'm not actually sure. It comes with a rather large opportunity cost, though (a Fell Woodland Bow can be either Grievous or Made In Anvil Way, not both).

[Scrollreader]

Yeah. I honestly think it helps Called Shots and high damage rating heroes most (obviously). I'll be curious to see how it stacks up, math-wise but I suspect it is a better buy for the Greatbow users than the Hobbits and Elf. The better called shot chance is amazing, but the Elf also really needs fell and the Woodland Bow. And then his damage suffers.

[Falenthal]

My option was always not to increase the Damage/Injury of an elven archer, but their chance to hit/do an Injury.

They hit more often than other archers, but the damage they inflict is always lesser than those with Great Bows.

Maybe you can think first what you want elven archers to excel at, and then look for a little boost to it.

[Scrollreader]

I want it to represent their ability to hit 'a bird's eye in the dark'. Which would seem to, in some way, interact with piercing blows. Greatly increased chance to pierce is the Hobbit trademark, with Fair Shot. I'd also like it not to consume hope, since they already have an archery virtue which does this.

Bows are not ideal weapons, requiring a quality just to reach par with Great Bows, so I think a Virtue that only applies to them is probably ok to be a little on the strong side (but the Woodland Bow math might convince me otherwise, if it, by itself, compensates for the otherwise poor Bow).

Treating enemy protection rolls as wearied, to some degree still makes sense to me. It's a new mechanic, but one which is relatively limited (roughly 1 per die in armor), is not super useful against Great Size enemies (who are more likely to be wearied already) and against most enemies is the equivalent of increasing the pierce TN by a couple of points, ie where the Greatbow is already.

I'm not sure if a 25℅ chance for a 'super pierce' is the right way to go, to be honest. Flavor-wise, I'd be supportive of something that made called shots more reliable, but I have a strong feeling that would really break the system, as high skill archers are already quite incentivized to try for them.

[Deadmanwalking]

I want it to represent their ability to hit 'a bird's eye in the dark'. Which would seem to, in some way, interact with piercing blows. Greatly increased chance to pierce is the Hobbit trademark, with Fair Shot. I'd also like it not to consume hope, since they already have an archery virtue which does this.

Thematically, I totally get where you're coming from, pretty much all solutions in this vein are just a bit too powerful mechanically.

And I'll note that ignoring all penalties (like those from darkness) also fits pretty well with that flavor text.

Bows are not ideal weapons, requiring a quality just to reach par with Great Bows, so I think a Virtue that only applies to them is probably ok to be a little on the strong side (but the Woodland Bow math might convince me otherwise, if it, by itself, compensates for the otherwise poor Bow).

I agree in principle (and Fair Shot is actually an excellent example of such a Virtue)...but Woodland Bow is just that good. Adding above par Virtues on top of it is serious overkill.

I know that may be hard to believe (it was for me) but I did some pretty extensive comparisons, and it's actually pretty close to on par with Fair Shot + a Bow of the North Downs all by itself if going by the math (at least, in most reasonable fights...if you have to go 10 rounds or more it starts falling behind a bit). That's...really impressive.

Treating enemy protection rolls as wearied, to some degree still makes sense to me. It's a new mechanic, but one which is relatively limited (roughly 1 per die in armor), is not super useful against Great Size enemies (who are more likely to be wearied already) and against most enemies is the equivalent of increasing the pierce TN by a couple of points, ie where the Greatbow is already.

The math disagrees. And it's often the equivalent of increasing the Pierce TN by 3 or 4...which is to say higher than the rules are designed to allow weapons that can make Called Shots to reach.

I'm not sure if a 25℅ chance for a 'super pierce' is the right way to go, to be honest. Flavor-wise, I'd be supportive of something that made called shots more reliable, but I have a strong feeling that would really break the system, as high skill archers are already quite incentivized to try for them.

Yeah, pretty much the only people who (speaking mechanically) shouldn't be making Called Shots almost all the time at skill 4+ are Hobbits. Or people picking off the wounded, of course.

[Scrollreader]

And, of course, the balance of the Woodland Bow applies all the time (unless you have a Famous Weapon bow), since it is likely to be one of the first rewards an elf archer takes.

... What frustrates me, and what one of the real issues I have with it is that, even with your version, it's such a very, very situational virtue. Even if you're ignoring all penalties globally AND get the +2 to +4 'extra' when you spend Hope to hit, Deadly Archery is still less useful to an archer than the baseline benefit from Wood Elf Magic. It's like the Spear of King Bladorthin that way, only worse because it is a trap for new players who want to be an elf archer.

[Deadmanwalking]

And, of course, the balance of the Woodland Bow applies all the time (unless you have a Famous Weapon bow), since it is likely to be one of the first rewards an elf archer takes.

Yep.

... What frustrates me, and what one of the real issues I have with it is that, even with your version, it's such a very, very situational virtue. Even if you're ignoring all penalties globally AND get the +2 to +4 'extra' when you spend Hope to hit, Deadly Archery is still less useful to an archer than the baseline benefit from Wood Elf Magic. It's like the Spear of King Bladorthin that way, only worse because it is a trap for new players who want to be an elf archer.

Yeah. That's my big problem with that solution, too. I just haven't thought of anything better. The real issue is that Woodland Bow is just so good that any Virtue that really feels useful all the time and doesn't cost Hope to use (and Stinging Arrow already fills the 'costs Hope' slot for Elven archers, IMO) has a tendency to overpower things. You can skirt around that by only having it work vs. really powerful things (specifically, those with Great Size) since that just puts them on par with Great Spear and Great Bow users (a reasonable thing to do, though not a necessary one)...but that has thematic issues (why are they better vs. such foes?) and is hard to do in an elegant fashion to boot.