forums.cubicle7.co.uk
archive

The thought was that, since great size monsters generally have more armor, the 'weary while making protection rolls only' thing is mostly useful against them, since the net effect is roughly -1 per die in armor. But I am convinced that it makes the Elf a murder machine against normal foes.

Honestly, I may just scrap the virtue entirely, and replace it with something not Archery related. It feels a bit wrong that the famed Elven archery is just an artifact of the Bow, however, and that they become subpar to other archers if armed with a Famous Weapon of equivalent worth.

Scrollreader wrote:The thought was that, since great size monsters generally have more armor, the 'weary while making protection rolls only' thing is mostly useful against them, since the net effect is roughly -1 per die in armor. But I am convinced that it makes the Elf a murder machine against normal foes.

That is sorta the issue, yeah.

Scrollreader wrote:Honestly, I may just scrap the virtue entirely, and replace it with something not Archery related. It feels a bit wrong that the famed Elven archery is just an artifact of the Bow, however, and that they become subpar to other archers if armed with a Famous Weapon of equivalent worth.

If that's your issue, you could pretty readily make Deadly Archery give the Woodland Bow bonus (only when using Bows) and make some other Cultural Reward available. This powers up Elves very slightly (since it allows 3 qualities on the bow plus what's now the Woodland Bow bonus), but not a lot since Keen is of dubious usefulness on Bows, so it should work fine.

Scrollreader, do you have he Rohan sourcebook?
I know that it's not exactly what you are looking for, but in that bookk there is that virtue that allows the use of the Bow even in Open and Forward stance.

I have no Elf in my groups, but I'm tempted to houserule that Virtue in lieu of Deadly Achery.
In melee a Bow is less powerful than, say, a Spear, but it allows the Elf to concentrate just on Bow skill and Bow rewards (while other archers have to divide their XP among ranged and melee skills/rewards), and it allows the trope of Legolas going with just bow and knife.
Another side effect is that it allows for one more archer in the group (the Elf can shoot in melee, the normal archer takes firing stance).
Just my 2 cents...

Corvo wrote:Scrollreader, do you have he Rohan sourcebook?
I know that it's not exactly what you are looking for, but in that bookk there is that virtue that allows the use of the Bow even in Open and Forward stance.

I have no Elf in my groups, but I'm tempted to houserule that Virtue in lieu of Deadly Achery.
In melee a Bow is less powerful than, say, a Spear, but it allows the Elf to concentrate just on Bow skill and Bow rewards (while other archers have to divide their XP among ranged and melee skills/rewards), and it allows the trope of Legolas going with just bow and knife.
Another side effect is that it allows for one more archer in the group (the Elf can shoot in melee, the normal archer takes firing stance).
Just my 2 cents...

You're opening a can of worms, Corvo! Or Pandora's Box full of tentacles!

I'd add "...Legolas going with just bow and two knives."

Except that, unlike in the movies, in the books Legolas actually uses his knife to kill orcs when he runs out of arrows, or when swarmed a Amon Hen and Helm's Deep.

Deadmanwalking wrote:After doing some actual math-based analysis, I've since come to the conclusion that adding anything that really ups Injury (either in reality or effectively) to Deadly Archery is a bad idea. A Wood-Elf using the other available Virtues and Rewards is already on par with combatants of every other sort, with the sole exception of those using a Great Spear or Great Bow vs. Great Orcs or Trolls (and nobody is equal to those two specific builds vs. those foes). Adding blanket bonuses to increase their effectiveness thus boosts them to the point where they are the single most effective and powerful build in the game by a pretty solid margin. That's...probably not a great plan.

Do you have the math for that conclusion posted anywhere? Like you said it's a bit hard to believe. I don't see Mirkwood Elves are being all that powerful by the RAW. They have their good points, but I don't see them as being in danger of overpowering the game. I'd like to see what made you come to that conclusion.

atgxtg wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:After doing some actual math-based analysis, I've since come to the conclusion that adding anything that really ups Injury (either in reality or effectively) to Deadly Archery is a bad idea. A Wood-Elf using the other available Virtues and Rewards is already on par with combatants of every other sort, with the sole exception of those using a Great Spear or Great Bow vs. Great Orcs or Trolls (and nobody is equal to those two specific builds vs. those foes). Adding blanket bonuses to increase their effectiveness thus boosts them to the point where they are the single most effective and powerful build in the game by a pretty solid margin. That's...probably not a great plan.

Do you have the math for that conclusion posted anywhere? Like you said it's a bit hard to believe. I don't see Mirkwood Elves are being all that powerful by the RAW. They have their good points, but I don't see them as being in danger of overpowering the game. I'd like to see what made you come to that conclusion.

The elven bow gives them an additional volley. That is really powerfull, especially in short fights, less so in prolonged fights.

I personally enjoy a mix of balance and lore, so I dont mind elven archers being > to other races, but not to a point where the group is constantly looking to the elf to win the fights.

spivo wrote:
The elven bow gives them an additional volley. That is really powerfull, especially in short fights, less so in prolonged fights.

I personally enjoy a mix of balance and lore, so I dont mind elven archers being > to other races, but not to a point where the group is constantly looking to the elf to win the fights.

I'm aware of the Woodland Bow, and while it's nice, I don"t find it all that powerful. Certainly not to the point where Mirkwood Elves are more powerful than the other characters. That's why I'd like to see what the conclusion was based on.

atgxtg wrote:

spivo wrote:
The elven bow gives them an additional volley. That is really powerfull, especially in short fights, less so in prolonged fights.

I personally enjoy a mix of balance and lore, so I dont mind elven archers being > to other races, but not to a point where the group is constantly looking to the elf to win the fights.

I'm aware of the Woodland Bow, and while it's nice, I don"t find it all that powerful. Certainly not to the point where Mirkwood Elves are more powerful than the other characters. That's why I'd like to see what the conclusion was based on.

You can use the weapon simulator in my .sig to test it out. Or you can do the math pretty easily: if a fight lasts N rounds, the Woodland bow will on average increase output by about 1/N, but with the additional advantage that the damage comes front-loaded entirely at the beginning of combat, instead of spread out equally across the whole fight.

EDIT: Wait, the simulator I meant isn't in my .sig. Anybody remember which thread I posted that in? Was it in Deadly Archery?

EDIT2: Oh, wait, maybe it wasn't a web app, maybe that sim was something I ran locally and just posted results.

Sorry, but I just don't see how an extra opening volley makes the Mirkwood elves so powerful compared to the other cultures.

IMO,their best combat advantage is their high Wits (and thus high Parry), but it's offset by the fact that most of the cultures have virtues (Swordmaster, Great Strength) that level the playing field. The Woodland Bow is nice, but so are quite a few of the other cultural weapons (Sherperds-Bow, Daleish Longbow). The damage from the woodland bow isn't all that great (5 with about a 5 Body to back it up). I;d say the only way the Woodland Bow could be especially dangerous would be if the extra volley was used to make a prepared/called shot.

The Hobbit's Far Shot ability, which let's then get a piecing blow over 30% on the time (regardless of skill) is much more powerful -especially with keen arrows(over a 43% chance) or superior keen (over 55%).