forums.cubicle7.co.uk
archive

Halbarad wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:39 pm

I suppose the need for a Messenger during this period might be more around information gathering and sowing disinformation rather than delivering Sauron’s orders.

I was thinking recruiting, observing and scouting for "talent" to join the ranks of Mordor.

Otaku-sempai wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:04 pm

At the very least, the Nazgûl were laying low until round TA 1300 as far as the Men of the West knew. It's hard to say what they were up to behind the scenes, earlier in the Third Age.

Possibly nothing. They might have vanished when Sauron fell and did not manifest until after Sauron did. Or not.

Otaku-sempai wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:04 pm

The Wise did suspect the presence of at least one of them as the Necromancer in Dol Guldur, not realizing that it was Sauron already returned.

Yeah, because unlike in an RPG, they didn't have game mechanics to look up to see if the rules allowed them to return without thier master. Or just how powerful the One Ring was. Apparently, it was what kept Sauron's spirit tied to Middle Earth so that he could return. The Nazgul might have needed Sauron to return, or perhaps just the One Ring. It's possible that they might have been around since the fall of Sauron, but kept as much under the radar as possible- since the forces of the Last Alliance would probably have hunted them down and wiped them out if they were aware of them.

But he situation is open to lots of interpretations and possibilities.

Otaku-sempai wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:04 pm

Tolkien never wrote much about whatever intelligence services were maintained by Gondor or Arnor. Scouts probably kept watch on the borders of Mordor, and I'm sure that rumors coming out of foreign lands were noted; but I don't know that spies ever tried to infiltrate those lands (except perhaps in Harondor and Umbar).

I think that Faramir's band of Rangers is a good example of what Gondor did. Spies probably consisted of a few Rangers, traveling merchants, couriers, and whatever locals they could buy information from. One thing about the baddies is that most would probably trade off information for personal gain, if they thought they could get away with it.

Timmity Took wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:27 pm

What about intelligence agents of Mordor? Would a Messenger of Lugburz be likely to encounter outside of Mordor, say in Mirkeood and Wilderland, in TA 2946?

Definitly.
If you want some messengers from Mordor in Wilderland at that time, you can have them searching for Gorgol, son of Bolg. Delivering a message to seize Mt. Gundabad, and secure his position and rebuild the remaining forces. Stand ready when the Dark Lord call upon you!

Pretty much all the scattered forces from the Battle of five armies could be the target for messengers, telling then to rally. All is not lost! The Dark Lord is stronger than ever!!

atgxtg wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:58 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:04 pm

At the very least, the Nazgûl were laying low until round TA 1300 as far as the Men of the West knew. It's hard to say what they were up to behind the scenes, earlier in the Third Age.

Possibly nothing. They might have vanished when Sauron fell and did not manifest until after Sauron did. Or not.

I suspect that the Nazgûl were not rendered helpless when Sauron was defeated by Isildur, but I do agree that they might well have been significantly weakened. I still think that they probably returned to their own territories for a time.

I think that Faramir's band of Rangers is a good example of what Gondor did. Spies probably consisted of a few Rangers, traveling merchants, couriers, and whatever locals they could buy information from. One thing about the baddies is that most would probably trade off information for personal gain, if they thought they could get away with it.

Yes, the Ithilien Rangers are pretty much what I had in mind as scouts for Gondor. Aragorn, as Thorongil, might have carried out a number of scouting missions for Ecthelion. He took one on by himself in TA 2980, after he left the service of Gondor and before he came to Lothlórien. Saruman favored the use of spies and informants; I am sure that Sauron would have as well.

Otaku-sempai wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:01 am

atgxtg wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:58 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:04 pm

At the very least, the Nazgûl were laying low until round TA 1300 as far as the Men of the West knew. It's hard to say what they were up to behind the scenes, earlier in the Third Age.

Possibly nothing. They might have vanished when Sauron fell and did not manifest until after Sauron did. Or not.

I suspect that the Nazgûl were not rendered helpless when Sauron was defeated by Isildur, but I do agree that they might well have been significantly weakened. I still think that they probably returned to their own territories for a time.

I think that Faramir's band of Rangers is a good example of what Gondor did. Spies probably consisted of a few Rangers, traveling merchants, couriers, and whatever locals they could buy information from. One thing about the baddies is that most would probably trade off information for personal gain, if they thought they could get away with it.

Yes, the Ithilien Rangers are pretty much what I had in mind as scouts for Gondor. Aragorn, as Thorongil, might have carried out a number of scouting missions for Ecthelion. He took one on by himself in TA 2980, after he left the service of Gondor and before he came to Lothlórien. Saruman favored the use of spies and informants; I am sure that Sauron would have as well.

Not sure where to jump into this and what to quote, so I will start with this.

I like Iron Crown's take on things in their MERP line where at least some of the Nazgul went to the far lands on the continent, the places that Tolkien did not talk about, to cause trouble and recruit for Sauron's return. Remember that the two Blue Wizards went off into these same non-detailed lands as well, probably to watch out for signs of Sauron or the Nazgul.

I think that whenever the Nazgul reappeared or fled to, they kept their true identities hidden to avoid drawing attention from the Free Peoples. Come to think of it, "Witch King of Angmar" might have been a sort of "cover identity".

Or maybe the original Nazul were destroyed and the ones that appear in LotR were replacements? It is odd that there is no information at all about the Witch King prior to 1300 Third Age. If he were some powerful noble of the Second Age, you would think that there would be information about during that time. Same with the others (only Khamul the Easterling seems to get a name).Or perhaps they all were known but that Tolkien wanted to present them as powerful but bound servants of Sauron/the One Ring.

Lots of possible interpretations and threads for adventures. I could see a campaign based around a Gondorian expedition into Mordor similar to the Dwareven expedition to reclaim Moria.

Enevhar Aldarion wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:38 am

I like Iron Crown's take on things in their MERP line where at least some of the Nazgul went to the far lands on the continent, the places that Tolkien did not talk about, to cause trouble and recruit for Sauron's return. Remember that the two Blue Wizards went off into these same non-detailed lands as well, probably to watch out for signs of Sauron or the Nazgul.

Yes, I am piggybacking on pretty much the same idea, though my mental image of Arda is informed by Tolkien's sketches from The Shaping of Middle-earth and Karen Wynn Fonstad's revised Atlas of Middle-earth. These would have included the lands of the distant East and the far South that Aragorn visited in the years prior to Bilbo's farewell party in The Lord of the Rings.

Enevhar Aldarion wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:38 am

I like Iron Crown's take on things in their MERP line where at least some of the Nazgul went to the far lands on the continent, the places that Tolkien did not talk about, to cause trouble and recruit for Sauron's return. Remember that the two Blue Wizards went off into these same non-detailed lands as well, probably to watch out for signs of Sauron or the Nazgul.

Yes, I am piggybacking on pretty much the same idea, though my mental image of Arda is informed by Tolkien's sketches from The Shaping of Middle-earth and Karen Wynn Fonstad's revised Atlas of Middle-earth. These would have included the lands of the distant East and the far South ("...where the stars are strange") that Aragorn visited in the years prior to Bilbo's farewell party in The Lord of the Rings.

I don't think any one else has mentioned the below points but please forgive me if someone has.

All of the fortification we know about in western Mordor are actually Gondorian built with the exception of Barad-Dur. Minas Morgul (anon Minas Ithil), the Black Gate, and the tower at the pass of Cirith Ungol all qualify (recall the line where Sam realizes it was meant to keep people IN Mordor). These fortifications near Minas Tirith suggest that there may have been other smaller (old) outposts built further afield in Mordor. That
doesn't help much with who lives there but alone might give you some fortresses to populate or investigate or raid for ancient and hidden lore.

These would seem to be great places to stash a few surviving "Black Numenorean" Sauronic cults and their retainers for the couple of thousand years after they get the boot at Umbar.

Happy New Year,
feld

feld wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:39 pm

All of the fortification we know about in western Mordor are actually Gondorian built with the exception of Barad-Dur. Minas Morgul (anon Minas Ithil), the Black Gate, and the tower at the pass of Cirith Ungol all qualify (recall the line where Sam realizes it was meant to keep people IN Mordor). These fortifications near Minas Tirith suggest that there may have been other smaller (old) outposts built further afield in Mordor. That doesn't help much with who lives there but alone might give you some fortresses to populate or investigate or raid for ancient and hidden lore.

These would seem to be great places to stash a few surviving "Black Numenorean" Sauronic cults and their retainers for the couple of thousand years after they get the boot at Umbar.

Happy New Year,
feld

Good points, feld, though any outposts constructed further into Mordor were probably placed there by Sauron and his servants. Studying the roads through Mordor on TOR's maps provides us with likely places for military outposts, camps and checkpoints. South Nurn, which seems to be the least unpleasant region within Mordor, also seems to be the least developed. I suspect that there was little there other than slave-farmers and their overseers, their products probably transported by river to the Nurn Road or to the East Nurn Road to Khand. There are no marked passes in the south through the Mountains of Shadow; however, it looks as though there could be secret passes either where the River Harnen originates or at the western end of East Nurn where the road ends (begins?). If any such passages are known to the servants of Sauron then they would be guarded.

And, yes, I agree that Morgoth cults would be cultivated within Mordor (and Khand).