Realism in Middle-earth

[Otaku-sempai]

Well, Mannish technology in Middle-earth would have taken a huge blow from the destruction of Westernesse. And Tolkien's world was always a mixture of cultures with different tech levels from stone age (the Woses) to bronze age (Dunlendings?) to iron age (Rohirrim) to the Age of Exploration (Númenóreans). And then we have the Shire in its own little bubble.

[cuthalion]

Realism, shmealism. What's important is that the author (or Loremaster) has produced a secondary world in which the reader (or players) can successfully invest secondary belief. As long as this secondary belief is maintained, it doesn't matter whether you introduce anachronisms*, grit, prostitutes, or what have you.

* The stories of Middle-earth do not take place in the Middle Ages, so it's not an anachronism to give hobbits clocks, umbrellas, and tobacco, or to do any of the other allegedly anachronistic things Tolkien does.

Yes--well there are two senses of 'realism' at play in this thread/discussion. 'Realistic' as in, dark-ages/medieval/historically/physically/etc. realistic, and 'realistic' as in the sense of a novel as a medium for story that has more realism/interiority/immediacy etc. I.e. as LoTR differs from, say, the Illiad, or Tennyson's Idylls of the King, or the narrative POV of a folk/fairy tale, etc.

So my take away is it's pretty hard to emulate either/both--(1) the particular realism of the novels (the feeling of the history/histories as Tolkien works them all together, its familiarity, its believability when it comes to the hardships endured etc.... especially when blended with the mythic/magic elements) and (2) the particular narrative immediacy, complexity/richness and maturity of the story that LoTR tells.

DnD always kind of sucked for me, even as a kid, because of how simple motivations/stories/etc. are pitched--at least in the source material I had at hand. Obviously what you do with it can make the difference.

Again, what Tolkien did was just unique. Putting a postal service in Laketown feels a bit wrong to me--it belongs in Hobbiton. But it's just gonna be an exercise of staying true to the source material in the ways that feel satisfying to the LM/players.

Having said that, I think understanding what Tolkien's doing and what the different ages/cultures/stories/styles he is invoking and how he blends them together could probably go a long way to LMs/players making decisions that they are happy with. I think Robin has an introduction to ME in his fan stuff that gives a good shot at encapsulating ME--maybe somebody could expand on this. Or it would be a good exercise for LMs who are interested in capturing the feel of ME to kind of write their own style guide.

Lots of tips in the TOR books also of course.

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Again, what Tolkien did was just unique. Putting a postal service in Laketown feels a bit wrong to me--it belongs in Hobbiton. But it's just gonna be an exercise of staying true to the source material in the ways that feel satisfying to the LM/players.

But I could easily see a Pony Express-style delivery service taking important letters and parcels between the cities, especially once the Fourth Age starts and things start to become safer.

[cuthalion]

Heheheh. I see what you're getting at. Definitely more fitting.

I guess in my mind there are the Ravens, there are messengers. Potentially I have intuitions about literacy, and how many people in Laketown actually would *write* a message--even the traders probably only keep basic accounts? They just aren't that kind of hobbity, writing-thank-you-cards-and-birth-invitations kind of a culture.

After your basic message, passed by word of mouth, obviously comes a 40ft high blazing beacon. There's nothing in between.

Very interesting when you start to look at it how many ideas/elaborations we probably all have, which don't even appear in the text anywhere.

[Otaku-sempai]

After your basic message, passed by word of mouth, obviously comes a 40ft high blazing beacon. There's nothing in between.

Except for the Red Arrow delivery from Gondor to Rohan. The beacons weren't even used in the book, were they?

[cuthalion]

For answer Gandalf cried aloud to his horse. ‘On, Shadowfax! We must hasten. Time is short. See! The beacons of Gondor are alight, calling for aid. War is kindled. See, there is the fire on Amon Dîn, and flame on Eilenach; and there they go speeding west: Nardol, Erelas, Min-Rimmon, Calenhad, and the Halifirien on the borders of Rohan.’

[cuthalion]

Awesome, had completely forgotten about the Red Arrow. I'll have to reread that.

[Glorelendil]

Awesome, had completely forgotten about the Red Arrow. I'll have to reread that.

Directly lifted from House of the Wolfings.

[cuthalion]

"Curiouser and curiouser!” Guess I'll have to read that one of these days.

[atgxtg]

But I could easily see a Pony Express-style delivery service taking important letters and parcels between the cities, especially once the Fourth Age starts and things start to become safer.

I kinda thought that the Hobbits probably adopted and adapted the "post office" concept from some sort of Arnorian messenger service. It's the peaceful nature of the Shire, and the easy to travel terrain, that makes something like an organized postal service feasible. It's not all that hard technologically, you just need to have a literate culture, something like paper, and reasonable rapid and safe method of travel.

As far as the clocks and such go, I figured that was due to the Dwarves that traveled though and traded in the Shire. Being a step ahead of most the other cultures in the area of crafts, I suspect they probably could and did produce some clockwork devices. That probably what a lot of the "magical toys' in LotR really are. And similar items did exist in a limited fashion back in antiquity.