Re: Realism in Middle-earth
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:51 pm
Realism, I suppose.
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Re: Realism in Middle-earth
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:45 pm
I will have to track that down, but based on your summary I think I agree.Stormcrow wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:08 pmWhat you're describing, Glorelendil, is addressed by Tolkien in his essay "On Fairy Stories." If one is suspending one's disbelief, then the artist has already failed. The author's job is to subcreate (because only God can "create") a secondary world in which the reader can invest his secondary belief. You know it's not the primary world, but you willingly enter the secondary world, and if the author has done a good job, you believe in it while you're there--you are in an enchanted state. When the author has NOT done a good job, you cannot invest secondary belief in the secondary world, and while you're there you must consciously suspend your disbelief.
I also don't like the term immersion applied to RPGs. They work exactly as Tolkien described for stories: if the game master has successfully subcreated a secondary world, the players can invest their secondary belief in it. Exactly how immersive that experience has to be will vary from game to game and person to person, but I think people don't need as much as some think. A master storyteller or a good game master can enchant his or her audience or players regardless of distractions from outside. If immersion is not being used to mean paying attention to the story/game, then it's being used as an excuse for a failure of the author/game master to enchant.
Re: Realism in Middle-earth
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:09 pm
Sure it is. As long as you are not claiming that some detail (including someone else’s use of information their character wouldn’t have) is so unrealistic that it ruined your immersion.
Re: Realism in Middle-earth
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:31 pm
I'm not claiming anything, except that there is a whole lot of drivel in this thread that is borderline narcissism.Glorelendil wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:09 pmSure it is. As long as you are not claiming that some detail (including someone else’s use of information their character wouldn’t have) is so unrealistic that it ruined your immersion.
Re: Realism in Middle-earth
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:45 am
You'll find "On Fairy Stories" in Tales from the Perilous Realm, The Tolkien Reader, The Monsters and Critics, and Other Essays, and Tree and Leaf. A stand-alone version was published in 2008 called Tolkien On Fairy-Stories.Glorelendil wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:45 pmI will have to track that down, but based on your summary I think I agree.
Do read it. It's a brilliant explanation of why anyone would bother with fairy stories in the first place, and really is all about the topic of this thread. How better to answer your questions than by hearing Tolkien's own answer?
Re: Realism in Middle-earth
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:22 am
Um...because he's not necessarily the final arbiter of the answer? But I'm willing to bet he has some great insight.Stormcrow wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:45 amYou'll find "On Fairy Stories" in Tales from the Perilous Realm, The Tolkien Reader, The Monsters and Critics, and Other Essays, and Tree and Leaf. A stand-alone version was published in 2008 called Tolkien On Fairy-Stories.Glorelendil wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:45 pmI will have to track that down, but based on your summary I think I agree.
Do read it. It's a brilliant explanation of why anyone would bother with fairy stories in the first place, and really is all about the topic of this thread. How better to answer your questions than by hearing Tolkien's own answer?
Re: Realism in Middle-earth
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:51 am
P.S. I'm disappointed nobody thought it was funny that I wondered if the AngryDM is really zedturtle or JamesBrown, two of the nicest RPG forum posters anybody could hope to meet.
Re: Realism in Middle-earth
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:15 am
Friend, I've been waiting about 18-months for somebody to comment on my avatar . . . 
Have to say, I kind of didn't get the joke--the only AngryDM post I've read (which you linked to, on traps) was pretty interesting and well written--so could be either of them. Haven't really seen any angriness/unfriendliness.
Have to say, I kind of didn't get the joke--the only AngryDM post I've read (which you linked to, on traps) was pretty interesting and well written--so could be either of them. Haven't really seen any angriness/unfriendliness.
Re: Realism in Middle-earth
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:18 am
Re: Realism in Middle-earth
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:20 am
Really? I thought what I typed was quite honest, simple to understand and to the point. We Aussies are know for calling a spade a spade you know. I did consider writing it in a more diplomatic tone but that would have required some prose, a dash of sarcasm and use of the word, dare I say it, immersion in an unsanctioned manner. So in the end I thought brevity was the best option.
What started out as a nice discussion about realism degraded into a “holier-than-thou” elitist babble on the use of the word immersion and under what conditions one is allowed to be immersed. I was so close to writing “Please stop, you’re starting to scare all the normal people that read these forums”.
You typed “Or maybe you just object to people using the term inaccurately or in ways to make themselves sound smart.” about the term immersion ... really, does that not sound the least bit patronising to you? And then someone actually had the nerve to tell me when and how I should consider myself immersed in my gaming environment.
Of all the things that I could have typed, I think I did quite well.
Anyway, Happy New Year!