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My provocation was admittedly a little snarky, but I thought I prefaced it in a way to make it clear that it was also meant with some levity. And I was griping about the use of a word...which I also use...not attacking an individual. My apologies to everybody for being the instigator of some nastiness that doesn't belong in this community.

I think we need Jon at the moment just to remind us that we're all "shouting through a keyhole" when posting on a discussion forum. Or something along those lines, anyway...

I get why people use the word immersion - they are using it in a shorthand way to describe a variety of things that are often personal to their own play experience. I don't have a problem with that and them saying, "{this} ... breaks my immersion". It's a quick way of saying when something pulls them out of the deep/shared experience they are having. I've heard it used for things inside the game described by the GM, particular rules in a system, or even someone at the table cracking Monty Python jokes, etc. I can see how it's used for all of those.

And Kurt, you should be in a great mood; you've just hammered us whinging poms in the Ashes. Cheer up!

Kurt wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:20 am

You typed “Or maybe you just object to people using the term inaccurately or in ways to make themselves sound smart.” about the term immersion ... really, does that not sound the least bit patronising to you? And then someone actually had the nerve to tell me when and how I should consider myself immersed in my gaming environment.

Of all the things that I could have typed, I think I did quite well.

Anyway, Happy New Year!

Actually no, it was about a term that belongs in a textbook, 'suspension of disbelief'. I was specifically raising my eyebrows that people ever talk like this at the table.

Well done for patting yourself on the back--but, to be clear, it isn't really ok to jump into somebody else's thread and then label them pompous or whatever. If Glorelendil wants to talk about verisimilitude, I don't see any forum rules telling him he can't--and the conversation was at least somewhat productive (and also, and I think you missed this, a little self-deprecating). There are rules for labelling someone/a group of people a narcissist. Or any other name calling or degrading comments for that matter.

cuthalion wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:00 pm

Actually no, it was about a term that belongs in a textbook, 'suspension of disbelief'. I was specifically raising my eyebrows that people ever talk like this at the table.

I, for one, do often use the phrase 'willing suspension of disbelief' when discussing science fiction and fantasy movies, literature and comics (just ask my wife). Not so much the term 'immersion'. A friend of ours had a long-running AD&D campaign that had gotten so meta that elements would take me out of the game. There were so many 'legacy characters' with high-level connections that we never seemed to have a 1st-level party where at least one high-level NPC wasn't keeping tabs on them or gifting someone with a "get-out-trouble-free" item.

Forgive me. 'Belongs in' really should have read something more like 'comes from'.

(For the love of Tolkien don't anybody correct me and tell me it's from Coleridge, Kurt will have kittens.)

Look, I do think there are such things as “immersion” and “willing suspension of disbelief” but they have to do with story (as Stormcrow, channeling Tolkien, observed) not rules. Too often they are used...mis-used, in my opinion...to advance agendas about playstyle or mechanics, to the point where my BS meter tends to go off whenever I see them.

Immersion for me is any time I'm thinking about the game I'm playing and not thinking about work, house maintenance, or anything else. It doesn't have anything to do with realism or verisimillitude, but it is definitely incompatible with boredom and repetition.

cuthalion wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:00 pm

... to be clear, it isn't really ok to jump into somebody else's thread and then label them pompous or whatever.

Yes, you are correct. I apologise Glorelendil, I should have been less of an ass about it.

Kurt wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:34 am

cuthalion wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:00 pm

... to be clear, it isn't really ok to jump into somebody else's thread and then label them pompous or whatever.

Yes, you are correct. I apologise Glorelendil, I should have been less of an ass about it.

No worries. Sorry if my grumping and curmudgeoning offended you.

Stormcrow wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:45 am

You'll find "On Fairy Stories" in Tales from the Perilous Realm, The Tolkien Reader, The Monsters and Critics, and Other Essays, and Tree and Leaf. A stand-alone version was published in 2008 called Tolkien On Fairy-Stories.

Do read it. It's a brilliant explanation of why anyone would bother with fairy stories in the first place, and really is all about the topic of this thread. How better to answer your questions than by hearing Tolkien's own answer?

Found it. Only partway through but it's good.

I don't think there are brothels in Faerie.