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If an elf (or a great spider) are in Mirkwood, but somebody shines or creates a very bright light in the deep forest, does that negate one ability, both abilities, or neither?

Also, are these two abilities equal in all respects, or different in some ways? (Anything that shuts off one shuts off the other, apply equally to rolls, etc.)

Angelalex242 wrote:If an elf (or a great spider) are in Mirkwood, but somebody shines or creates a very bright light in the deep forest, does that negate one ability, both abilities, or neither?

It won't negate Folk of the Dusk as:

When an Elf of Mirkwood is inside a forest or under the earth, or it is night.

... They are still inside a forest.

I'd say the same goes for Denizen of the Dark:

While the creature is in the dark (at night, underground, or in a dense forest)

As they are still in an, assumed dense, forest.

Both the above are 'or' statements rather than 'and' so as long as one of the criteria qualifies then the ability holds.

As for what you mean by "very bright light"; that needs to be defined, I recommend you listing some examples that could occur in TOR. I'd say the very bright light would need to be something exceptional to affect either of the 'night' qualifiers on these abilities.

This is from a game I'm playing on Rpol.net (Play By Post)

Bofri the Dwarf has a special lamp that can absorb light from any source (like, say, the Sun...) then release the light from the same source later at the same intensity at which it was absorbed.

So he's essentially got a lamp that's 'shining like the sun' in the forest. The light it shines is considered in all respects to be identical to the source it got it from. Thus, it was explained to us that if it absorbed light from Durin's Day, it'd reveal the keyhole regardless of what day of the year it was. Absorbed summer's moon would reveal the moon letters on Thorin's map. And so on.

Angelalex242 wrote:Bofri the Dwarf has a special lamp that can absorb light from any source (like, say, the Sun...) then release the light from the same source later at the same intensity at which it was absorbed.

So he's essentially got a lamp that's 'shining like the sun' in the forest. The light it shines is considered in all respects to be identical to the source it got it from. Thus, it was explained to us that if it absorbed light from Durin's Day, it'd reveal the keyhole regardless of what day of the year it was. Absorbed summer's moon would reveal the moon letters on Thorin's map. And so on.

It's not 'shining like the sun', for all intents and purposes it *is* the light of the sun based on your summary of what the artefact does.

In such a case I would state that such creatures caught in such light wouldn't be classed as being in the dark - obviously the focus/width of such a beam would determine how easy it was to escape and light shined at a creature underground would still bathe them in sunlight so it would negate Denizen of the Dark. A creature in a dense forest may have more chance of escaping the light as deep shadows would be cast by such light within a dense forest (assuming they remained in such shadows).

I'd say the elf ability is different as the wording for that clearly states that they can be "inside a forest or under the earth, or it is night". I'd say the lamp wouldn't have any affect on these criteria, as even shining the lamp wouldn't change night to day - it would still be night. This is different to Denizens of the Dark; which talks about the ability in terms of darkness/lighting.

Rich H wrote:I'd say the same goes for Denizen of the Dark:

While the creature is in the dark (at night, underground, or in a dense forest)

As they are still in an, assumed dense, forest.

Both the above are 'or' statements rather than 'and' so as long as one of the criteria qualifies then the ability holds.

That's not an "or"; that's a parenthetical explanation. When to consider the environment "dark" is when it's night, underground, or in a dense forest. If it's any of these but someone is shining a bright light, it's not dark.

Mind you, "bright" is relative. Denizen of the Dark isn't going to be spoiled by torchlight. Wizard-light, yes.

Stormcrow wrote:That's not an "or"; that's a parenthetical explanation. When to consider the environment "dark" is when it's night, underground, or in a dense forest. If it's any of these but someone is shining a bright light, it's not dark.

Agreed, my second post reassessed and clarified that with further explanation.

Hi there,

If my players had a way of getting a really bright light in there I'd reward them for their ingenuity and prevent their opponents from getting the DotD bonus. It's have to be something special in terms of light, though (Wizard light, the Lamp of Balthi, maybe the flare effect the Lampmaker can teach in TDoM would invalidate it for a round or two, stuff like that).

Regards,

Shane

"Folk of the Dusk" I think doesn't depend on the actual lighting conditions, it depends on the Elf being in certain circumstances. Bright light or the absence of light does not effect this. I would not allow "Folk of the Dusk" to be triggered by an Elf standing at noon in an open field confronting Ungoliant and her web of shadows, even though he would be in the dark.

"Denizen of the Dark" on the other hand is completely tied to ambient lighting. A torch, or even Gandalf's staff when he is using it to light his way would not be bright enough to disrupt or cancel this power. The Phial of Galadriel, a Silmaril, the Lamp of Balthi, or one of Gandalf's bright flashes would be plenty of light.

I wonder if the Rivendell supplement will bring us those wonderful "glow-in-the-dark" High Elves....

DavetheLost wrote:I wonder if the Rivendell supplement will bring us those wonderful "glow-in-the-dark" High Elves....

I suspect so, along with the Dunedain (Rangers of the North). It's been oft discussed here, to the point that rumour and truth have mixed into one!

I know this thread is not about the power of Denizen of the Dark, but am I the only one who thinks that, if the Attribute level is high, then this special ability makes the monster ridiculously powerful. F.x. The Werewolf of Mirkwood. He will hit anything no matter what they do in the dark, with an average Bite attack of 36...
With that many bonuses, he will also hit when he rolls Gandalf Rune!! Or did I miss a rule on that?

But it Works perfectly with lesser opponents, that are easy to slay in daylight, but dangerous in the dark. Goblin Archers have a chance to hit, when they are in the dark And Great Spiders are really dangerous in the dark!!