What do you expect or want in a Gondor source book?

[Otaku-sempai]

Don't have access to my books and don't know offhand if there is much specifically about the Gondorian navy, but have always assumed its home base was at Pelargir. Also I would imagine Tolfalas is garrisoned by Gondor during periods of strength, at least at strategic points, but in the late TA this may have been largely withdrawn. There is probably still a Gondorian presence but perhaps also havens and coves used for pirates, smugglers and even corsairs.

Okay. A naval garrison at Dol Amroth seems likely. You make a good point about Gondor being undermanned, there might be no more than a token force (if any) on Tolfalas in the late Third Age, and maybe a fishing village or two.

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Considering the Corsair fleet that Aragorn and the ghost army took over was originally supposed to sail up to Minas Tirith and unload an army under Saron's control into the battle, I have to think the Gondorian navy was nearly non-existent. I vote for either so severely undermanned that they could not fight or already destroyed in a naval battle before the attack on Minas Tirith, so that it would be clear sailing for the Corsair fleet.

[Otaku-sempai]

Considering the Corsair fleet that Aragorn and the ghost army took over was originally supposed to sail up to Minas Tirith and unload an army under Saron's control into the battle, I have to think the Gondorian navy was nearly non-existent. I vote for either so severely undermanned that they could not fight or already destroyed in a naval battle before the attack on Minas Tirith, so that it would be clear sailing for the Corsair fleet.

Yes, the Corsair fleet would have had to overrun Pelargir before continuing on to Lebennin where Aragorn and the Army of the Dead intercepted it. However, that is during the War of the Ring. That doesn't tell us much about the strength of Gondor's navy circa the year 2960, give or take a few years. We know that Aragorn (as Thorongil) was able to lead a small fleet in a successful raid on the Corsair fleet at Umbar early in 2980. Perhaps during the WotR Denethor left Pelargir vulnerable in order to reinforce the troop strength at Minas Tirith.

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Considering the Corsair fleet that Aragorn and the ghost army took over was originally supposed to sail up to Minas Tirith and unload an army under Saron's control into the battle, I have to think the Gondorian navy was nearly non-existent. I vote for either so severely undermanned that they could not fight or already destroyed in a naval battle before the attack on Minas Tirith, so that it would be clear sailing for the Corsair fleet.

Yes, the Corsair fleet would have had to overrun Pelargir before continuing on to Lebennin where Aragorn and the Army of the Dead intercepted it. However, that is during the War of the Ring. That doesn't tell us much about the strength of Gondor's navy circa the year 2960, give or take a few years. We know that Aragorn (as Thorongil) was able to lead a small fleet in a successful raid on the Corsair fleet at Umbar early in 2980. Perhaps during the WotR Denethor left Pelargir vulnerable in order to reinforce the troop strength at Minas Tirith.

It is hard to find any information on the state of Gondor's military in the time period between the two books, other than with Sauron driven from Dol Guldur in 2941, and his return to Mordor because of it, almost 70 years of constant war between Gondor and Mordor, that started in 2951 when Sauron openly declared himself and culminating in the War of the Ring. Reading through different websites, I think the navy was actually of decent size before it was destroyed by the Corsair fleet, considering how large the Corsair fleet itself was. So how big was the fleet in 2941 or 3018? With what little we do know, I am guessing the fleet slowly diminished in size and strength until 2980 and may have slowly recovered from there, but not recovered so much that it could not be destroyed by the Corsair fleet during the War.

[torus]

Yes I agree, there's no reason to assume the Gondorian fleet was non-existent just because the Corsairs had successfully attacked Perlargir. It may have been scattered in a sea battle beforehand, or taken by surprise and burnt in the harbour.

[Jussi Marttila]

About the Corsairs of Umbar:

A treatment of the Men of Umbar, much like the one we got about the Dunlendings, would be nice. Easily swayed by the Shadow, yet there's always an exception to the rule. After all, one of Tolkien's central ideas is that no one is really irredeemable and your heritage doesn't mean you can't turn out to be a hero.

There might be enough wiggle room to play around with the idea of Gondor's relationship with Umbar: they might have not at all given times been openly hostile. And even in times of hostility, it might not extend to all Men of Gondor and all Men of Umbar. After all, it's a pre-nationalism world, where local affairs along the border might not resemble what the nobles in the capitals think.

[torus]

There might be enough wiggle room to play around with the idea of Gondor's relationship with Umbar: they might have not at all given times been openly hostile. And even in times of hostility, it might not extend to all Men of Gondor and all Men of Umbar. After all, it's a pre-nationalism world, where local affairs along the border might not resemble what the nobles in the capitals think.

Yes some very good points. I think that as powers, Gondor and Umbar were and are always rivals, with a history of bitter relations, not least the kin strife. However that doesn't mean individual relationships or attitudes have to be the same, or that many on either side would not have taken a more ambivalent approach. I'm sure there would have been extensive trade and contact between the two realms when not at war (and probably even then). Also communities in Harondor, possession of which would have switched hands many times, would necessarily have had a different perspective and range of loyalties.

[Terisonen]

It looks very like the Hundred Years War

[Otaku-sempai]

About the Corsairs of Umbar:

A treatment of the Men of Umbar, much like the one we got about the Dunlendings, would be nice. Easily swayed by the Shadow, yet there's always an exception to the rule. After all, one of Tolkien's central ideas is that no one is really irredeemable and your heritage doesn't mean you can't turn out to be a hero.

One notable difference, though, is that the Dunlendings were hostile toward the Rohirrim for being in possession of what they saw as their own rightful land. And they resented Gondor for granting the horse-lords that land and for the deforestation of southern Eriador in the Second Age by the Men of the West. The Dunlendings as a people had no specific beef with anyone else except, perhaps, for a superstitious dread of the Elves. Saruman simply manipulated the animosity of the Dunlendings for his own (and his Master's) ends--though the ancestral hatred of the Dunlendings for the Men of the West over the deforestation of southern Eriador might have also been a factor. The Corsairs, as a Culture, are more firmly allied with the Shadow. Still, it's a good idea to keep in mind Samwise's musings over the dead Haradrim soldier in Ithilien.

There might be enough wiggle room to play around with the idea of Gondor's relationship with Umbar: they might have not at all given times been openly hostile. And even in times of hostility, it might not extend to all Men of Gondor and all Men of Umbar. After all, it's a pre-nationalism world, where local affairs along the border might not resemble what the nobles in the capitals think.

Agreed; it is not unusual for friendships between individuals to spring up even over hostile borders. Fantasy authors have played with this idea any number of times. I can easily imagine, for example, a smuggler from Umbar with friends and contacts in Pelargir and other places along the Bay of Belfalas. And Men of high principle might fight on the side of their homeland out of a sense of duty and obligation while having a deep respect for persons from the other side.

[Dunheved]

This is one of my answers to the OP: In reality I’d be happy if Gondor was announced as the next big thing straight after Moria.

Can all of Gondor be put into one source book?

If we look at Wilderland as a region; it is the starting location for whole TOR system. But we also have Laketown; HotW; the DoM campaign; Erebor; we will have Laughter of Dragons. Lothlorien already has a culture in the Adventurer’s Companion and Tales from Wilderland spreads itself throughout the areas covered by the other books. [The forum is full of brilliant combinations from these different parts of the TOR library.] So the basic introduction got a lot of fleshing out.

Can a parallel appear for the Southern parts of C7’s Middle Earth? I'd like to suggest that a “basic” Gondor book covers the region governed by the stewards of Minas Tirith (i.e. Ecthelion II and Denethor) with a back history about Gondor’s previous position done in the C7 TOR style. (i.e. the links to Eorl and the seesaw ownership of Umbar).
This book might have the status of a HotW for the southern regions: it would describe the way things are now (i.e. TA 2941) and be the centre which other region books acknowledge. So a Gondor source book would be (i) geography (ii) present economy/society (iii) culture/politics and (iv) history.
The regions could be covered in outline (Lebennin, Tolfalas, Dol Amroth, Pelargir. Minas Tirith itself etc etc etc) leaving plenty of ‘wiggle-room’ for LMs to be creative just as HotW does.

THEN I’d be keen to see a few focussed region guides which each incorporate suggested adventures. (I’m thinking about style shown by the Bree supplement.) e.g. “Osgiliath”* might mean the river Anduin from Rauros to the Pelargir harbour and have the Ithielien Rangers described. Four linked adventures would take a band of PCs from Rohan into the border wars with Mordor and Harad, while introducing those Rangers and getting the PCs to the sea.
“Corsairs of Umbar”* would see a band of PCs start in the harbours of Pelargir and be involved in raids along the southern coasts, possibly concluding with a mission that is completed at Dol Amroth. It would introduce sea battles and Harondor.
“Yeomen of Gondor” * would cover all the regions south of the White Mountains and in them: I’d see some orc nests needing cleaning out here, and links to the Dunlendings, Western Rohan and the road that leads to the Greenway and ending with a clear link to the "Ruins of the North".


* Just working titles of course because I’m only blowing smoke rings in my hobbit hole