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Otaku-sempai wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:27 pm

I would generally assume that Noldor or Vanyar Elves (or Telerin Elves in the West) are literate. I expect that Elves in the Grey Havens and Rivendell are generally literate. That might not hold true for the majority of Wood-elves in Mirkwood or Lothlórien, or for most Avari.

But why would you assume that? What would they write? I imagine some craftsmen would know enough about letters to letter their works of art, but that doesn't require a literate society. I still can only think that elves would only be interested in literate societies for the sake of being artistic. What other reason would there be for an entire population of elves, overall, to be literate?

Heck, what reason would there be for Mirkwood elves not to be literate? They at least are shown to do business outside their borders, which likely requires accountancy.

Are you sure you're not taking a cultural bias, namely, urban equals literate and rustic equals illiterate, and applying it to this situation? I don't think that applies to immortal elves.

I think C7 see all of the playable cultures as literate.
Why else have the “Write a letter” fellowship phase

"[Said Gandalf,] '... I forsook the chase, and passed swiftly to Gondor. In former days the members of my order had been well received there.... Less welcome did the Lord Denethor show me then than of old, and grudgingly he permitted me to search among his hoarded scrolls and books.

'"If indeed you look only... for records of ancient days, and the beginnings of the City, read on!" he said. "For to me what was is less dark than what is to come, and that is my care. But unless you have more skill even than Saruman, who has studied here long, you will find naught that is not well known to me, who am master of the lore of this City."

'So said Denethor. And yet there lie in his hoards many records that few now can read, even of the lore-masters, for their scripts and tongues have become dark to later men. And... there lies in Minas Tirith still, unread, I guess, by any save Saruman and myself since the kings failed, a scroll that Isildur made himself...."

Indur Dawndeath wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:35 pm

I think C7 see all of the playable cultures as literate.
Why else have the “Write a letter” fellowship phase

That is just the way many RPGs handle it, the player characters are always literate, unless there is a specific reason to not be. Your character is exceptional and being literate is part of that.

Stormcrow wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:15 pm

But why would you assume that? What would they write? I imagine some craftsmen would know enough about letters to letter their works of art, but that doesn't require a literate society. I still can only think that elves would only be interested in literate societies for the sake of being artistic. What other reason would there be for an entire population of elves, overall, to be literate?

Heck, what reason would there be for Mirkwood elves not to be literate? They at least are shown to do business outside their borders, which likely requires accountancy.

Are you sure you're not taking a cultural bias, namely, urban equals literate and rustic equals illiterate, and applying it to this situation? I don't think that applies to immortal elves.

There is certainly a tendency to equate 'civilized' with 'literate'. I am perhaps comparing the Eldar to those Japanese samurai who saw a purpose in learning fine arts, composing poetry, etc. And when you have thousands of years in which to study various arts and crafts, why wouldn't you turn to literacy at some point as long as it is available?

In a culture that has developed writing and values learning, in which everybody has millennia to kill, I would assume that nearly everybody learns to read a write.

And sing and play instruments and recite poetry and identify constellations and birds and flowers and trees and see and knit and cook and bake and cut dovetails and ride unicycles and tie cherry stems with your tongue and do multivarable calculus and make pattern welded door knockers and....etc. etc etc.

Glorelendil wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:18 pm

Could you say more about that? I thought reading was traditionally taught before writing, in the sense that whole numbers are taught before fractions, but not that they are two entirely separate things. Or is that all that you meant? That some people will have learned to read a little bit but would have broken off their studies before learning to write?

On the extreme end of things, you have stuff like scribes who don't know writing beyond copying text. But essentially, writing on a functional level is more demanding than reading on a functional level. I can on a good day read a French newspaper and catch the basic gist of things, but I don't know grammar and vocabulary well enough to actually write in French. This is very typical among people who don't have access to formal education, and best guess would be that only places like Gondor in Middle-Earth (and TOR canonically, Bree) have schools. Maybe Dale or Laketown, too.

Historically, what with the printing press being widespread around the late 16th and early 17th century in Europe, you had a lot of people who were quite capable of reading the entertainment material of the day, but they didn't know how to write. Reading and writing going hand in hand is something that is a fairly recent development.

Elfgamewise, you'd probably have people like servants in Dale who are good enough at reading to be given a shopping list but they need someone else for writing that down.

Jussi Marttila wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:42 pm

On the extreme end of things, you have stuff like scribes who don't know writing beyond copying text. But essentially, writing on a functional level is more demanding than reading on a functional level. I can on a good day read a French newspaper and catch the basic gist of things, but I don't know grammar and vocabulary well enough to actually write in French. This is very typical among people who don't have access to formal education, and best guess would be that only places like Gondor in Middle-Earth (and TOR canonically, Bree) have schools. Maybe Dale or Laketown, too.

It seems like you are conflating language with literacy in the above case. Can you speak French fluently?

I can read a lot of German, and some Russian and Italian, but I can only write those languages as well as I can speak them (which is not well). However, my writing has also degraded with my fluency.

I can see, on the other hand, how my ability to write English would transfer, so that may not be a good test.

What I'm struggling to understand is how the limitation could be deeper than penmanship, however. If you are fluent in the language, and you know the letters enough to read them, surely you can also form them, if perhaps crudely.

Anyway, I've been Googling around and have seen this claim (that in the Middle Ages lots more people could read than could write) but I'm unable to find anything that's either authoritative or explains why this would be true.

Historically, what with the printing press being widespread around the late 16th and early 17th century in Europe, you had a lot of people who were quite capable of reading the entertainment material of the day, but they didn't know how to write. Reading and writing going hand in hand is something that is a fairly recent development.

I could see that if you only read typeset text it would be even harder to form the letters by hand. But, again, if you know how to read is there more to be learned than just penmanship?

Any links/references greatly appreciated. I find this interesting.

*Disclaimer--no links/references*

Yes--I think we really need to be able to distinguish here the multiple kinds of 'literacy' being thrown about in the discussion. The point that there's a teleological stance to the way most RPGs/most of us look toward writing was a good one. More and more I feel like writing/books have made people/societies dumber, not more intelligent, but I don't say that so as to whack at a hornet's nest and derail this discussion--I'm not going to defend that point, but I'm trying to agree with the idea that it's important we broaden our perspectives about what has value/what is logical when looking at other times/places. Again, the past is a foreign country and all that.

So, that being said, I think a large part of perhaps what you're not considering Glorelendil, is the practicalities involved. You're potentially much more likely to come by opportunities to learn to read than your are to have the (expensive) materials at hand to waste practicing writing. Ink and vellum are pricey, not to be wasted, etc. Plus, because of this, there are probably more people around who can read basic signs etc. to learn from, than there are who can teach writing. And then again, don't forget that many who could 'write', were really only copying.

So, again, if you don't have access to an endless, easily available, cheap supply of writing materials, it's probably really just not something that you would see as an alternative in the same way that we do. Let alone live in a world of letters and symbols as we are used to, thinking your thoughts in them, putting them down at every opportunity.

And as for the elves, i would imagine writing well within their capability, but just not their natural preference. For some of the same reasons, but also because of their culture/love of song and oral language. I think of them as all the more intelligent for speaking multiple languages and having lengthy oral histories and a multitude of arts etc. without a heavy reliance on writing. I think of them finding joy in waking up the ents and teaching them to speak. I think of them singing/improvising their songs as they welcome Bilbo into Rivendell.

Yes, there are books in Elrond's house. But think of Bilbo, as an old hobbit, composing his song and writing it down in the middle of Elrond's hall--the elves humour him for it, but I the distinct impression I have is that they look down on him for needing the assistance of pen and parchment.

So, for me, I'd probably allow only rich/prosperous cultures to attempt the Write a Letter undertaking actually, without some kind of explanation otherwise--I hadn't thought of that before, but I think that's a great addition and pretty inline with Cub7's approach. And I'd judge NPCs abilities by the kind of guidelines we have all been throwing out.

Ps. well done everybody on generating another interesting/fun discussion! I'm only worried that Lifstan never checked back in, I hope he didn't get frightened away. Perhaps he just got more than he bargained for in terms of answers!!