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Is he an example of a Hobbit with 4 Shadow Points, or an example of a Hobbit with 5?

Theoretically, someone with 5 permanent Shadow is unplayable, but Gollum manages to act like a PC through 2/3 of the War of the Ring.

Shadow points are there for those who can contest it with Hope, an I think Gollum was more driven by Hate than Hope. So I would say, none.

All of them.


Robert

doctheweasel wrote:Shadow points are there for those who can contest it with Hope, an I think Gollum was more driven by Hate than Hope. So I would say, none.

Yes and no. Gollum was mostly driven by the uncontrollable desire for his precious - and through this proxy his hate for everyone who denied it to him was a strong driving motive.
There was this tiny corner of his mind though that still retained memories of his happier days (that still belonged to his former self and not the thing he had become) - and occasionally this persona guided his actions too. This latter was especially observable when Frodo showed mercy and genuine friendship for him.

Thus I don't think that Gollum can easily be described by the Shadow/Hope vs. Hate mechanism, at least not by the RAW.

Cheers
Tolwen

I agree with Tolwen. I gave this question a good thought and decided that trying to describe it simply in game mechanics is likely to be an exercise in frustration.

Gollum takes a very different role in LotR than do most of the other characters. What is most interesting to me is that unlike Frodo who ultimately fails and is corrupted, Gollum ultimately is redeemed. Gollum's redemption is like that of Boromir. Both fall to the temptation of the Ring, but are able to redeem themselves in an ultimate act of self-sacrifice. Frodo sacrifices everything but his life, but when he falls to the temptation of the Ring, he is not redeemed by his own actions, nor does he experience a change of heart. He remains corrupted until Gollum plunges into the Crack of Doom with the Ring. At that moment Gollum frees and redeems both Frodo and himself.

DavetheLost wrote:Gollum takes a very different role in LotR than do most of the other characters. What is most interesting to me is that unlike Frodo who ultimately fails and is corrupted, Gollum ultimately is redeemed. Gollum's redemption is like that of Boromir. Both fall to the temptation of the Ring, but are able to redeem themselves in an ultimate act of self-sacrifice.

I wouldn't go so far to make this a willing sacrifice, i.e. that Gollum willingly threw himself into the chasm. He wouldn't have been able to do this (no one would have been able to). In his joy of recovering his precious though, he became careless and made a bad move that threw him down the Cracks of Doom.
It might be that in this moment, when he was thus doomed, he was redeemed. His other - older - self finally might have become dominant again in these last moments and he died not in hate and desire for the One but relieved that the century-long torment was finally over.
IMO the depiction of this moment in the movie is quite fitting, as to me Gollum looks somewhat like this.

Cheers
Tolwen

Tolwen wrote: It might be that in this moment, when he was thus doomed, he was redeemed. His other - older - self finally might have become dominant again in these last moments and he died not in hate and desire for the One but relieved that the century-long torment was finally over.
IMO the depiction of this moment in the movie is quite fitting, as to me Gollum looks somewhat like this.

Cheers
Tolwen

Agreed. IMO, I never saw this act as a self-sacrifice, but a sacrifice to save his precious. He only cared for it. He eschewed his own sense of being careful and wary when he saw what he so desired in plain sight and easy for grabs. His carelessness led to a mistake and him falling.

The scene in the movie though shows him trying to "save" the ring from it's fate. Trying to cradle it like a mother would an infant and protect it from the slag. He tried to hold it up out of the lava even as he was consumed by it. That was the tragedy of his addiction to it.

That's how I always felt it went down in the book too and imagined it. Though I like to think Tolwen is right - that in the end, his good side came through in a moment of sacrifice - even if it was for the precious.

Robert

Well, I suppose Frodo, at the cracks of doom, finally rolled an eye on his TN 35 corruption test, and got overcome. Not that we can blame him for that, pretty much anybody would've been. The mercy he showed to Gollum, however, was his ticket out of the impossible situation. He showed him mercy, Gollum returned that mercy by biting his finger off...and then, by the will of Eru himself most likely, danced off the edge. Frodo did everything any mortal could be expected to do, got a LOT farther then anyone else would've, and damn well earned his trip to Valinor. Manwe and friends realized that Frodo essentially did an A plus job of getting the ring where it needed to be and showing mercy to the right guy who could get him out of the impossible.

Could Tolkien have written Frodo just shrugging it off and tossing the ring overboard? Well, yeah, he could've, but that would've done the Ring a disservice. He was a hobbit facing off with the source of a very strong Maia's power, in the heart of said Maia's stronghold. It's like sending a 4 year old to duel Aragorn to the death. That the 4 year old won had to be the result of some damn awesome coincidences.

Angelalex242 wrote:
Could Tolkien have written Frodo just shrugging it off and tossing the ring overboard? Well, yeah, he could've, but that would've done the Ring a disservice. He was a hobbit facing off with the source of a very strong Maia's power, in the heart of said Maia's stronghold. It's like sending a 4 year old to duel Aragorn to the death. That the 4 year old won had to be the result of some damn awesome coincidences.

even the smallest person can change the course of the future....


Robert

SirKicley wrote:even the smallest person can change the course of the future....

Robert

Indeed.



... oh, you mean Frodo. Riiiiiiiight.