The Southern Elves

[Captain fluffy]

In the chapter of the hobbit 'Barrels out of Bond' it is stated that the wine in the Woodland Realm comes from the elves kinfolk in the south or from the vineyards of men in distant lands. The vineyards of men in distant lands are generally assumed to be Dorwinion or other areas by the sea of Rhun. But which southern kin of the wood elves are making wine? Lorien doesn't seem to be a good candidate and neither does anywhere in Southern Mirkwood. Any ideas?

[Falenthal]

I don't think there's any canon about it.
But TOR introduces, as one of the Rewards of the Wayward Elves culture, the Wine of the Dark Mountains that "...they distil from
a secret vineyard on the lower slopes of the Mountains
of Mirkwood."

That's how TOR handles the sentence you quoted. Finding or discovering this "secret vineyard", or even exploring it on behalf of Thranduil because he stopped receiving wine from it, might be an adventure hook. Remember that the Mountains of Mirkwood spawn with spiders during the Darkening of Mirkwood, and the Werewolf's lair is set there.

[Otaku-sempai]

I have wondered if the Elves of Mirkwood might have obtained wines from Lórien before contact waned between the two realms. Over the years it has also been speculated that Dorwinion might have been an Elven land rather than a Mannish realm (though that is stretching the phrase "kinsfolk in the South" a bit). However, the Wine of the Dark Mountains reward offers a good in-game explanation.

I think we just have to assume that when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit he simply had not yet developed a clear idea of the lands south of Wilderland. Even so, he might have had something like Lothlórien already in the back of his mind.

This subject does make me wonder how far the East-elves might have ranged in the years following the Great Journey. Might there be Avari dwelling in rain forests of Far Harad?

[Glorelendil]

It could be the sort of cultural miscommunication that happens all the time when dealing with immortal folk.

"Yes, we also very much like wines from our southern kin, although we are down to our last few bottles."

"When did you get your last shipment?"

"Let's see, it must have been...today is Thursday...so it must have been about 700. Second Age, that is. No, wait, that emissary from Lindon commented on the vintage so it must have been a bit later. Maybe 750 or 800. Why do you ask?"

[Otaku-sempai]

"Let's see, it must have been...today is Thursday...so it must have been about 700. Second Age, that is. No, wait, that emissary from Lindon commented on the vintage so it must have been a bit later. Maybe 750 or 800. Why do you ask?"

I'd guess that regular contact lasted somewhat longer than that, maybe around T.A. 1981? Not a very good year.

Náin I slain. The Dwarves flee from Moria. Many of the Silvan Elves of Lórien flee south. Amroth and Nimrodel are lost.

After that, we do have the Watchful Peace (2063-2460). Mmmm, 500 to 1000 year-old Elven wine.

[Glorelendil]

I'd guess that regular contact lasted somewhat longer than that, maybe around T.A. 1981? Not a very good year.

Oh lord. I didn't say they lost contact, just that they didn't order more wine...

...AND I was being more than a little silly with the example.

[Otaku-sempai]

Oh lord. I didn't say they lost contact, just that they didn't order more wine...

...AND I was being more than a little silly with the example.

Why so serious? I knew you were goofing; didn't you see my wink?

[Gilrohir Arncelevon]

There is rather a good "essay" online about whether or not Dorwinion or the region around the Sea of Rhun may have been an Elven kingdom of some sort. You'll find a link below. So it may be that there were elves living in that region, particularly if you believe the forest to the north east of the Sea of Rhun was in fact the same region where the elves originally awoke, which has been the subject of several essays and studies on Tolkien and is hinted at in the Atlas of Arda.

https://middle-earth.xenite.org/was-dor ... f-kingdom/

Hope that helps

[Otaku-sempai]

Thanks for the link! The original Dor-winion seems to have been in Beleriand, though the the name was certainly the inspiration for the later Dorwinion (by the way of the 1937 “Quenta Silmarillion”).

The Sea of Rhûn was surely a remnant of the great inland Sea of Helcar (as was also, perhaps, the Sea of Nurnan). However, I would argue that Cuiviénen, where the Elves first awoke, was likely hundreds of miles east of the future site of the Sea of Rhûn, near the Orocarni (Mountains of the East). The later inland sea is simply too centrally located to be the site of either Cuiviénen or the Wild Wood.

[Mim]

It could be the sort of cultural miscommunication that happens all the time when dealing with immortal folk.

"Yes, we also very much like wines from our southern kin, although we are down to our last few bottles."

"When did you get your last shipment?"

"Let's see, it must have been...today is Thursday...so it must have been about 700. Second Age, that is. No, wait, that emissary from Lindon commented on the vintage so it must have been a bit later. Maybe 750 or 800. Why do you ask?"

I enjoy these exchanges and you've given me another laugh.