Magic-biased (but non-wizard) culture

[Otaku-sempai]

We're now on page 5 and I think exactly one post has actually been a comment on the original post. Note that I was presenting ideas for a culture that is more magic-heavy than most, not a playable Istari.

My bad for naming the thread as I did.

I don't think that there should be a "Wizard Culture" at all, per se. Not only should the type of magic-user we are discussing be limited to Men (in my opinion, but Mage, Wizard, or whatever we call it should be either an alternate Calling or a Specialty within a given culture. A Man of Gondor, might be a Scholar with the Specialty of Magical Aptitude.

Actually, using the example of the Beornings, Cultural Virtues might even be the way to go.

[Glorelendil]

We're now on page 5 and I think exactly one post has actually been a comment on the original post. Note that I was presenting ideas for a culture that is more magic-heavy than most, not a playable Istari.

My bad for naming the thread as I did.

I don't think that there should be a "Wizard Culture" at all, per se. Not only should the type of magic-user we are discussing be limited to Men (in my opinion, but Mage, Wizard, or whatever we call it should be either an alternate Calling or a Specialty within a given culture. A Man of Gondor, might be a Scholar with the Specialty of Magical Aptitude.

Actually, using the example of the Beornings, Cultural Virtues might even be the way to go.

Well, yeah, I didn't mean Wizard as a race of Maiar. I meant....some culture in ME that uses more magic than others. If anything I think this exposes a limitation of the "culture" model for TOR: the real answer is that within some cultures (Lorien elves, Rivendell elves, or perhaps Dunedain) some members might be more magically inclined. The TOR model doesn't really account for cultural outliers.

Maybe the answer is that this unnamed culture transcends race & geography? I.e., if you take the route of wizardry, perhaps as a pupil to a lesser Istari, that "culture" supersedes your erstwhile heritage.

[Woodclaw]

To be fair, the ring verse is VERY well known. Only REALLY deep scholars (you!) would know otherwise. Gotta have a Lore score of at least 4 or 5 to know better.

But everyone knows
3 Ring for the Elven Kings under the sky
7 for the dwarf lords in their halls of stone
9 for mortal men doomed to die.
1 for the dark lord on his dark throne.

(Apparently, dwarves had an easier time dealing with elven toys then men did. Dwarves ended up dragon munched or dead, but never truly corrupted.)

Stiff Neck for the win.
In all fairness, I think that the "lesser corruption" of the dwarves affected the rings as well. Whereas the rings of men granted great powers at an horrible cost, the ring of the dwarves only made easier for them to accumulate wealth (provoded that there was a bit of wealth to start from). Apparently not being able to deeply corrupt the dwarves reduced their ability to tap into the rings' powers, which seem to be a common theme among the rings. Even the One provided but a glimpse of its true power in the hand of Smeagol, Bilbo and Frodo, due the natural reistance of the Hobbits to corruption.

[Angelalex242]

Well, the reason I propose using the Blues as PCs is because they do absolutely nothing of relevance we know of. (Hell, Radagast barely does anything of relevance).

Playing the Blues essentially makes the two useless, unknown wizards have a place in Middle Earth. Could it change things? Absolutely it could, because they'd actually be pulling their weight if they were played by PCs. Anyways, the return of the Blues to the West would be a good thing for everyone...the White Council would be relieved to have the two useless Istari back and fighting the Shadow. Gandalf can only be in one place at a time, after all, and having the Blues in places he is not does wonders for making Sauron's life a little harder.

[Elmoth]

"That we know of" is the relevant bit here. I would not put a Istari in the hands of the PC even when deadly drunk. But that is me.

Cheers,
Xavi

[Otaku-sempai]

Well, the reason I propose using the Blues as PCs is because they do absolutely nothing of relevance we know of. (Hell, Radagast barely does anything of relevance).

Playing the Blues essentially makes the two useless, unknown wizards have a place in Middle Earth. Could it change things? Absolutely it could, because they'd actually be pulling their weight if they were played by PCs. Anyways, the return of the Blues to the West would be a good thing for everyone...the White Council would be relieved to have the two useless Istari back and fighting the Shadow. Gandalf can only be in one place at a time, after all, and having the Blues in places he is not does wonders for making Sauron's life a little harder.

It is completely within your privilege to bring the Blue Wizards into your game, 'though it does completely contradict the reports that once Alatar and Pallando went into the East, they were never seen or heard from again in Northern Middle-earth. I can't help thinking that any of the five chief Istari are potentially too powerful to be anything other than NPCs. For the record, the Blues do already have a place in Middle-earth; their missions, for better or worse, were far to the East (and perhaps the South), whether they fulfilled them or not.

[Mim]

I've been following these fascinating posts & enjoying everyone's input on this crucial point. Capturing the feel of Middle-earth means we have to tread lightly where magic is concerned, & even I don't allow anyone to play any of the Istari . That said, however, it's your game & do what works for you.

I only want to add a quick point about the Ithryn Luin (Blue Wizards) - from UT:

In a letter written in 1958 my father said that he knew nothing clearly about ‘the other two,’ since they were not concerned in the history of the North-west of Middle-earth. ‘I think,’ he wrote, ‘they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and “magic” traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.’

Tolkien wrote "fear" & "suspect," & you can read this in more than one way. It's just possible that an LM who wishes to include Alatar and/or Pallando can say that they/he returned from the East after all. In my own game, I commit the unpardonable sin (gasp!) of changing the story so that the emissaries of the Enemy corrupt Alatar, who does establish a secret cult, betrays & murders his friend Pallando, & returns westward. It's a stretch, but IMHO, he provides a cool foe to confound the heroes.

[Glorelendil]

I've been following these fascinating posts & enjoying everyone's input on this crucial point. Capturing the feel of Middle-earth means we have to tread lightly where magic is concerned, & even I don't allow anyone to play any of the Istari . That said, however, it's your game & do what works for you.

I only want to add a quick point about the Ithryn Luin (Blue Wizards) - from UT:

In a letter written in 1958 my father said that he knew nothing clearly about ‘the other two,’ since they were not concerned in the history of the North-west of Middle-earth. ‘I think,’ he wrote, ‘they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and “magic” traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.’

Tolkien wrote "fear" & "suspect," & you can read this in more than one way. It's just possible that an LM who wishes to include Alatar and/or Pallando can say that they/he returned from the East after all. In my own game, I commit the unpardonable sin (gasp!) of changing the story so that the emissaries of the Enemy corrupt Alatar, who does establish a secret cult, betrays & murders his friend Pallando, & returns westward. It's a stretch, but IMHO, he provides a cool foe to confound the heroes.

Well, the failure Tolkien fears might not be a complete slide into shadow. Maybe the secret cult is secret because it's in opposition to the ruling powers, who are servants of Sauron. Maybe this gives us a hook for a magic-using class?

[Mim]

I've never thought of this one before, & it's a perfect tie-in.

[Sprigg]

A friend and I spent about four hours yesterday working out how a magic using character could work. We decided he's one of the Blues, but his body was killed and he failed his mission. As a result of his failure to accomplish his objective, he was sent back, but with far less power than he had previously possessed, and at this point he only has knowledge of the past thirty years of his life, during which he lived in Minas Tirith. He had always had, as it were, magical aptitude, and recently discovered somehow he is an Istar. He works extremely hard to keep what little he knows of himself secret as he researches on his former task, going only to some of the Wise and few others for aid.

I don't have the sheet with me but skills were something like:
3 lore, inspire
2 awe, persuade, riddle, song, search, courtesy
1 travel, awareness, battle, two others I can't think of

As for magic, he will be able to take shadow in place of his companions, and hope will function as mana essentially. For one point or more (depending), he can pull moisture from the air and condense it; during a battle he can spend hope (not sure how many points yet) to inspire his allies and give them bonus dice; for variable hope hope, 'infuse' a non-living object with water to increase it's weight, or remove any moisture from it to lighten it (not sure how I like this yet. I'm thinking no but we'll see); and finally he can spend four (maybe more) points of hope to immediately stabilize a dying character and remove one wound. If the character is wounded again that day, he gains a point of shadow. He will have access to the elf and dwarf spells for virtues.