Magic-biased (but non-wizard) culture

[Rocmistro]

Yikes. I really think incorporating the blues directly as PC's is the wrong way to go.

If anything, using the blue wizards as the founders of "Secret Magic Cults", ie, Wizard Academies which produced/s mortal lesser wizards who eventually end up in the West is about the only conceivable way to go that respects canon. These lesser wizards, I think, in keeping with Tolkien's suspicions that the 2 blues "failed", should be reckless and/or undisciplined and/or more prone to the influences of shadow.

[Glorelendil]

Tolkien could have conceivably also said, "...failed differently than Saruman or Radagast." Radagast also wandered off of his mission, by some interpretations, but not by succumbing to Shadow.

For that matter, Radagast might have some apprentices, which could be a playable culture/background.

[Rocmistro]

Tolkien could have conceivably also said, "...failed differently than Saruman or Radagast." Radagast also wandered off of his mission, by some interpretations, but not by succumbing to Shadow.

For that matter, Radagast might have some apprentices, which could be a playable culture/background.

He does and we do

Page 70 of Adventurer's Book: A Wizard's Pupil.

(not terribly "wizardly" is it? )

[Sprigg]

Yikes. I really think incorporating the blues directly as PC's is the wrong way to go.

If anything, using the blue wizards as the founders of "Secret Magic Cults", ie, Wizard Academies which produced/s mortal lesser wizards who eventually end up in the West is about the only conceivable way to go that respects canon. These lesser wizards, I think, in keeping with Tolkien's suspicions that the 2 blues "failed", should be reckless and/or undisciplined and/or more prone to the influences of shadow.

It's definitely a stretch, and I'm not certain I like it, having slept and thought on it. However, it does give us a good excuse for him to drop in and out as he has said he'll be able to play fairly irregularly. Thinking about making him a student of a blue instead, being sent out on research. That way there isn't the Maiar aspect to consider, and I would much rather stay within a reasonable interpretation of tolkien's work... And frankly a player as a wizard just smacks too much of more typical high-fantasy gaming (which TOR is not).

[Glorelendil]

Yikes. I really think incorporating the blues directly as PC's is the wrong way to go.

If anything, using the blue wizards as the founders of "Secret Magic Cults", ie, Wizard Academies which produced/s mortal lesser wizards who eventually end up in the West is about the only conceivable way to go that respects canon. These lesser wizards, I think, in keeping with Tolkien's suspicions that the 2 blues "failed", should be reckless and/or undisciplined and/or more prone to the influences of shadow.

It's definitely a stretch, and I'm not certain I like it, having slept and thought on it. However, it does give us a good excuse for him to drop in and out as he has said he'll be able to play fairly irregularly. Thinking about making him a student of a blue instead, being sent out on research. That way there isn't the Maiar aspect to consider, and I would much rather stay within a reasonable interpretation of tolkien's work... And frankly a player as a wizard just smacks too much of more typical high-fantasy gaming (which TOR is not).

IMO: if you want a playable "wizard", make one of the blues a Loremaster character and make the Hero his apprentice.

[Glorelendil]

Tolkien could have conceivably also said, "...failed differently than Saruman or Radagast." Radagast also wandered off of his mission, by some interpretations, but not by succumbing to Shadow.

For that matter, Radagast might have some apprentices, which could be a playable culture/background.

He does and we do

Page 70 of Adventurer's Book: A Wizard's Pupil.

(not terribly "wizardly" is it? )

I thought of that as I was typing it, but like you said it's not really a "wizardly" culture/background. Maybe House Rule some additional virtues and rewards (more nature-oriented than the ones I described in the OP) that can only be chosen with the A Wizard's Pupil background.

[Otaku-sempai]

One or both of the Blues may have even thought that, with Sauron's influence being so powerful in the East and South, starting a magic tradition was the only way left to resist him in those regions. Competing cults might undermine his influence and the existing Morgoth cults. I do agree, though, that Morinehtar and Rómestámo (Alatar and Pallando should proabably be considered to be their Maiar names) should remain teachers and Loremasters and should not themselves be used as player Heroes.

[Glorelendil]

I'm adding "What happened to the Blues?" to the "What I want in future expansions" thread.

[Angelalex242]

What happened to the Blues isn't covered by their license, sadly.

At least, I'm pretty sure it isn't. The Blues, I think, are a Tolkien Estate exclusive.

[zedturtle]

To get back to something close to the OP's ideas, I'd really appreciate some opinions on the following material (I originally posted it elsewhere but only got limited feedback):

So I've got a player whose character is on a long-term goal track of learning more about magic and associated lore. I've been thinking recently about different ways to represent magic appropriately in The One Ring. Using the Virtue system seems to be the right way, since that's how the official rules represent their magical bits. So how about this Virtue:

The Lore of Men:
You have learned ancient secrets and have the ability to see and know the minds of men in ways others cannot. You may learn up to three spells: the truthful gaze, a commanding voice and the knowing mind. You must choose one spell when you first select this Virtue, and you may learn a new one by spending one Experience point as your undertaking during a Fellowship phase.

The Truthful Gaze
Pippin looked straight into his eyes. The wizard held his gaze for a moment... "There is no lie in your eyes"

You may spend a point of Hope to invoke this spell and choose a single subject for the spell. You must be able to look directly into their eyes at close range for the duration of the spell. During this time you may ask a number of questions of the target (no more than your Wisdom score at maximum). The target is under no compulsion to answer but if he or she does answer, you will know the general veracity of the answer (as the target knows, so if the target has been lied to, a false statement can still ring true).

A Commanding Voice
Suddenly another voice spoke, low and melodious, its very sound an enchantment.

Casting his tattered cloak aside, he stood up and leaned no longer on his staff; and spoke in a clear cold voice... "Not all is dark. Take courage, Lord of the Mark for better hope you will not find."

A person with the commanding voice spell may spend a point of Hope and then choose either to use Wisdom or Valour in order to make a suggestion to a single target. If the caster's rank in the chosen score exceeds that of the target, then the suggestion is treated as a command. If the scores are equal or the caster's score is lower then the suggestion remains just that. The target will not follow any commands that do not provide some rationale as to why he or she would take that action.

Using this spell may cause the caster to make a Corruption Test. Using the spell to cause harm to anyone else gains the caster an automatic Shadow point.

The Knowing Mind
"He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off."

The caster may spend a point of Hope and select a single target. If the target is well known to the caster, the target does not need to be in sight. If the target is a stranger to the caster, the target must be in sight. The caster is able to determine the surface thoughts of the target (in mechanical terms, the caster will know what skill or ability the target is most likely to use next). This spell does not include the ability for two-way communication, nor does the target have any way of knowing that he or she is being probed.

Acting on the knowledge gained from this spell may cause Corruption Tests or even an automatic point of Shadow if used for evil intent.

----

As you can see, I tried to make the spells subtle and also have a bit of an edge to them... Men always are tempted by the power of the Shadow and can easily be swayed to commit evil acts. But these spells are not evil in themselves, its all about the application of them.

Also, there is some synergy... obviously a Commanding Voice and the Truthful Gaze work in concert for a successful interrogation.

So what do people think? Too much? Not enough?

I'm also thinking of doing other Lores... Perhaps Lore of Plants, and Lore of Beasts. Maybe a Lore of Fire, a Lore of Ice, a Lore of Seeming? Perhaps that's going too far though...