Shadow for killing innocuous orcs

[Earendil]

On the contrary I remember the Rohirrim slaughtering many of the orcs when they met them close to fangorn. The orcs made camp and the Rohirrim didn’t know that they had prisoners. They didn’t seem to hesitate and to my understanding the Rohirrim were always eager in hunting orcs in their territory.

Well, firstly, orcs in Rohan are enemy invaders, and they were clearly a warband rather than just wandering through. And I think ambushing a dangerous enemy is probably not a misdeed - it's pretty different from slaughtering them when they're ill and helpless. Secondly, the Rohirrim are not the heroes! They're generally on the side of the good guys, but are said to be less enlightened than the Dunedain, and they hunt the Wild Men "like beasts", which is clearly not something good guys should be aspiring to.

In my opinion, players shouldn't worry too much about their characters gaining a few Shadow points anyway. It's part of the setting that drawing closer to the Shadow is easy, and resisting it is hard. They shouldn't see it as a punishment, but as something that naturally arises from the drama, like battle scars. Their characters deal with fear and horror and despair regularly, and may well find their morals or will to resist evil gradually eroding if they don't take careful steps to prevent that.

[Geomtje]

...But remember that the rulebook says you should warn players if they are about to carry out a misdeed and earn shadow points. I think it's perhaps a bit unfair to punish them after the fact, without warning them first. (Unless they do the same thing again, in which case they should already know!)

That a very interesting and valid point, I haven’t even thought about that.

Also, there was this interesting debate on a similar topic not too long ago, if you would like to get some more inspiration viewtopic.php?f=60&t=10876.

[Ghorin]

the exact context is :

- scenario "Of leaves & stewed hobbit" / part 4 "Into the Mountains"

Start
- NPC Dinodas (hobbit) is prisoner of Orcs and Goblins inside Goblin Hall, under the High Pass. He's attached to the wall by a chain that cannot be broken, and the key to unlock the chain is with the Goblin Chief.
- Goblins and Orcs are having a feast with the food and stuff they have stolen from Dinodas
- Dinodas is forced to cook but he knows that he'll probably be eaten at the end of the feast

PCs actions
- They have entered the Goblin Hall and have found Dinodas but cannot deliver him, they have to get the key from the Goblin Chief who is as the feast
- They help Dinodas at cooking and add in the food ingredients to have Goblins and Orcs getting ill => it's working fine and after some time the Goblins and Orcs songs are decreasing and stopping.
- Several Orcs and Goblins come to punish Dinodas for the bad food but they encounter the PCs => fight => Orcs and Goblins are killed.
- Then the PCs enter deeper in the Goblin Hall, fight few other adversaries that they meet.
- Finally they enter the large room of the feast : here there are only several Orcs and Goblins who vomit and are very sick => they cannot fight and defend themselves, they even don't do any movement toward the PCs
- Here 1 PC (Dwarf) kill 2 Orcs that are ill, 1 PC (Hobbit) kill 1 another Orc. ==> This is this killing for which i consider giving Shadow points as the Orcs were totally non-threatening.

Comment : I didn't say the players that they could get Shadow points, but I told them twice that the orcs were non-threatening at all. Still they choose to kill them.

Comment : 1 day before, there was a fight outside between the PCs and the Orcs and Goblins (attackers).

[Otaku-sempai]

Well, this is a different situation than the one discussed in the previous thread. These are raiders, not slaves brought to a place against their will. I would argue that it would be fair to demand the immediate surrender of the incapacitated Orcs and put any who refuse to death. What to do with the prisoners (if any) is another debate. I do not accept the argument, however, that the company is ethically responsible for the actions of any or all goblins that are released, which is a point where the previous discussion bogged down.

[Agnot]

I would say that orc warriors are fair game, regardless of circumstances. Warriors are a threat even if they happen to be temporarily disabled by the PC's actions. But, I would say that orc women and children should be off limits. It's one thing to kill a culture's warriors. It's another thing entirely to kill their "civilians".

We ran into this situation once in a D&D campaign while invading a kobold lair. Many of the players argued against killing the families, but the blood-thirsty fighter in the group cut them down anyway. We gave them hell for it for the remainder of the campaign.

[Otaku-sempai]

Good point: I hadn't even considered the presence of females and young goblins (I think the adventure skips over the whole question). Given that, I might offer to leave adult males who have surrendered in peace with the understanding that this only represents a temporary, one-time truce. However, it may be that goblin-women might take their young and use the tunnels to keep themselves far from the company, or even to flee the lair.

[Glorelendil]

On the contrary I remember the Rohirrim slaughtering many of the orcs when they met them close to fangorn. The orcs made camp and the Rohirrim didn’t know that they had prisoners. They didn’t seem to hesitate and to my understanding the Rohirrim were always eager in hunting orcs in their territory.

We don't have the specifics on this event, as it is related by a character, not narrated in real time.

For example, we don't know if the orcs fought back or were trying to surrender. I would assume they fought back, as there is probably an assumption by both sides that if you surrender you'll get killed anyway. Or maybe instead there's an assumption that you'll be a slave, and warriors would rather die fighting than be a slave. Either way, I wouldn't be surprised if Orcs and Riders never surrender.

We also don't know if the riders (some/all of them) got Shadow for doing it. Boromir tried to take the Ring from Frodo by force, so just because a character in the books did something doesn't make it ok.

[Majestic]

As I read through this thread, I was going to say the exact same thing Earendil did about making sure you warn players before their characters earn Shadow.

It's important to do this, so their PC can make an informed choice on whether to take a particular action or not.

In any case, it's also a good idea to remind players that earning Shadow is something that's going to happen to all characters. It's not a 'punishment' for doing things wrong (even though it can feel like that when it's a Misdeed, which is why it's important to point out the consequences before they make that choice), but the consequences for living in Middle-earth and being exposed to the Shadow and darkness.

[farinal]

There are no such thing as innocuous orcs. It shouldn't count as a murder nor get them a Shadow point. IMO.

[Otaku-sempai]

There are no such thing as innocuous orcs. It shouldn't count as a murder nor get them a Shadow point. IMO.

Not even the Elves of Mirkwood are, as a rule, that blood-thirsty--at least according to the account of Mister Bilbo Baggins:

...for Wood-elves were not goblins, and were reasonably well-behaved even to their worst enemies,
when they captured them. The giant spiders were the only living things that they had no mercy upon.

Of course the trick would be that the goblin(s) would have to have been captured in the first place, and not killed in the initial encounter! The above passage is one reason why the murder (and, yes, it was cold-blooded murder) of the Orc-captive by Thranduil in The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug is generally seen as a dishonorable act. Even Legolas found it troubling.

I'll for the most part agree with you on the use of the word 'innocuous'; very seldom might one characterize any goblin as harmless.