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I was the one who started that thread and I didn't think that it would give so much posts. But this is so fascinating to read you all, whatever are your opinion, whatever is your own reading and understanding of Tolkien's works and how to best play them in TOR.
Concerning me, my opinion is in line with Rich R's one. Which mean that the PCs (apart of one who was absent) of my campaign will get Shadow points. And i'll give them a good explanation for which I will happily pick here in this thread

One question concernant the Shadow Points : How much would you give to :
- the Dwarf who killed 2
- the hobbit who killed 1
- the others PCs who didn't interfere

On my side, i was thinking of :
- 3 Points for the Dwarf and the Hobbit (the number of Orcs killed doesn't mind in my opinion, only the act)
- 1 Point for the other PCs

I'd be more interested in knowing the 'receipe' they used - it had to be pretty special to mess up the orcs tummies which I imagine are accustomed to all sorts of foulness? Or maybe they used the opposite method, feeding them lembas or elven condiments?

Maybe the hobbit should also get an extra shadow point for making such unpalatable dinner? That can't be the way for a proper hobbit to behave, surely?

Ghorin wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:53 pm

I was the one who started that thread and I didn't think that it would give so much posts. But this is so fascinating to read you all, whatever are your opinion, whatever is your own reading and understanding of Tolkien's works and how to best play them in TOR.
Concerning me, my opinion is in line with Rich R's one. Which mean that the PCs (apart of one who was absent) of my campaign will get Shadow points. And i'll give them a good explanation for which I will happily pick here in this thread

One question concernant the Shadow Points : How much would you give to :
- the Dwarf who killed 2
- the hobbit who killed 1
- the others PCs who didn't interfere

On my side, i was thinking of :
- 3 Points for the Dwarf and the Hobbit (the number of Orcs killed doesn't mind in my opinion, only the act)
- 1 Point for the other PCs

That sounds reasonable to me. If it was me I might, maybe, be a bit more lenient and only give 2 each to the dwarf and hobbit this time, increasing it if they do something similar again. But I won't argue with 3 points for "unprovoked aggression", and I agree that one orc or two doesn't matter (I might give more if they'd gone on a real killing spree).

Let me me the one to voice dissenting opinion again: I'd give them all the same amount of shadow points, it doesn't matter who killed the helpless orcs, the others agreed and watched, so they're equally quilty as accomplishes. So give them all the same amount.

I think by your description, you don't consider messing up with their food a misdeed, since it wasn't a poisoning exactly, just an underhand way to even out the odds? So if they'd settled with that, you wouldn't have given them any shadow points?

And for the defence of the dwarf, I think getting payback for orcs killing his friend is the honorable thing to do, it's just the way he did it that's the issue? I'd go pretty lenient even with him, therefore. But that bastard hobbit is another matter... I'd give them all 2 or 3 shadow points?

I’d say split the difference and give three points to those who did the deed and two points to those who let it happen. You can’t sit idly by while your fellowship members commit Misdeeds without being somewhat culpable yourself.

Butterfingers wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:06 am

Let me me the one to voice dissenting opinion again: I'd give them all the same amount of shadow points, it doesn't matter who killed the helpless orcs, the others agreed and watched, so they're equally quilty as accomplishes. So give them all the same amount.

I think there's different degrees of being an accomplice. Egging them on, going, "yeah, slit that helpless orc's throat!" might indeed be as bad as the actual act itself. Just not trying to stop them or talk them out of it is not, in my opinion.

I think by your description, you don't consider messing up with their food a misdeed, since it wasn't a poisoning exactly, just an underhand way to even out the odds? So if they'd settled with that, you wouldn't have given them any shadow points?

That's how I would rule it. Incapacitating your enemies with no lasting effects so you can sneak in and rescue a prisoner, hopefully without violence, is perhaps not perfectly honourable, but it's not worth a shadow point. Of course you can gain shadow points just for horrible experiences that aren't your fault in any way, so the exact situation does matter.

Faramir's line about how he wouldn't "ensnare even an orc with a falsehood" is a degree of moral purity I don't expect the players' characters to live up to (no shadow points for lying and trickery, as long as no-one really gets hurt). But it's a good indication, to me, of the ideal way to behave in Tolkien's morality, the gold standard if you like. If the heroes turn their backs on that morality, or move too far from it, they start to become likely to gain shadow points. Where exactly the line is, and how many points should be gained, is of course debatable, and may be dependent on context.

Boromir's Player: "Screw it. I'm going to take the ring from him."

LM: "Ok, but that will be a Misdeed, so you're going to get some Shadow."

Boromir's Player: "What?!?! But if I don't take the ring he's going to carry it right into stinkin' Mordor! The Enemy will get it and it will be curtains for all of us! I'm choosing the least-bad option!"

LM: "Yeah, that makes sense. But it's still a Misdeed to steal, especially from an ally."

Boromir's Player: "But it's for a good reason: I'm going to save all of Middle-earth! Or, at least, it will delay the inevitable for a while..."

LM: "Then that sounds like a good reason to take...or try to take...the ring. At the very least it will make a great story."

Boromir's Player: "So you won't give me the Shadow points?"

LM: "I didn't say that. Remember that shadow points aren't a punishment; they can simply be the result of making impossible choices in a bad situation. In this case it represents the little bit of corruption of your soul that comes with doing a bad thing for a good reason."

Boromir's Player: "$#%& this game. I'm going back to D&D."

Butterfingers wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:55 pm

I'd be more interested in knowing the 'receipe' they used - it had to be pretty special to mess up the orcs tummies which I imagine are accustomed to all sorts of foulness? Or maybe they used the opposite method, feeding them lembas or elven condiments?

Maybe the hobbit should also get an extra shadow point for making such unpalatable dinner? That can't be the way for a proper hobbit to behave, surely?

The Dwarf used his trait Knowledge of Enemy (orcs) to give the hobbit informations about what orcs usualy eat so that the orcs liked the food and eat much of it, and also get thirsty and drink more wine. The hobbit made a Craft roll and got a superior success and he was helped by his trait Herbs Lore for aromatic herbs.
Note : all food, ingredients and wine were owned by Dinodas (the hobbit prisoner they came to délivrer) and stolen by the orcs and goblins.

For the hobbit to get extra shadow point : i would have said Yes if he had made the cooking alone and with a bad intention. But here it was a good intention (make orcs innocuous so that they can deliver Dinodas, without un-needed Killing) and all PCs helped at cooking. And the hobbit will get Shadow pt for the later un necessary Killing action. Thus i'm not giving extra shadow to the hobbit. (unless most of you here convince me that i'm wrong)

(answer to your talks about how many shadow to give):
- the other PCs didn't interfere but also didn't encourage the killing, that's why i was giving them only 1 point. And i feel that they should have less shadow points than the dwarf and hobbit. But maybe the difference should be lesser (3 for killing, 2 for not interfering) as suggested by Agnot.

Glorelendil wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:26 am

Boromir's Player: "Screw it. I'm going to take the ring from him."

LM: "Ok, but that will be a Misdeed, so you're going to get some Shadow."

Boromir's Player: "What?!?! But if I don't take the ring he's going to carry it right into stinkin' Mordor! The Enemy will get it and it will be curtains for all of us! I'm choosing the least-bad option!"

LM: "Yeah, that makes sense. But it's still a Misdeed to steal, especially from an ally."

Boromir's Player: "But it's for a good reason: I'm going to save all of Middle-earth! Or, at least, it will delay the inevitable for a while..."

LM: "Then that sounds like a good reason to take...or try to take...the ring. At the very least it will make a great story."

Boromir's Player: "So you won't give me the Shadow points?"

LM: "I didn't say that. Remember that shadow points aren't a punishment; they can simply be the result of making impossible choices in a bad situation. In this case it represents the little bit of corruption of your soul that comes with doing a bad thing for a good reason."

Boromir's Player: "$#%& this game. I'm going back to D&D."

The players of my group all agree to play in Middle Earth, not in any other fantasy world. Moreover, each time i did a bad loremaster job for Middle Earth immersion, they told me (nicely) so that we can improve our feeling and pleasure of playing in Tolkien's world. Our current talks are all about that.
And the players can play D&D if they want, we have a D&D GM within group, but nobody is asking him and he doesn't propose.

Note : i'll give back here how it went when i told the players. Probably next week as we'll have no session this week.