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I’ve had the One Ring for a while but picked up Tales from the Wilderland and might actually get to play some soon.

I love what the system had done for emulating the genre, in particular:

* Dividing things into adventuring phase and fellowship phase to mark the passage of time
* Creating subsystems for the areas of conflict they thought were most important – combat, travel, and social Encounters

I’m not sure how Encounters are suppose to actually work though. The rules seem scattered throughout the books and new rules were added in Tales of the Wilderland for graduated success.

The gist of it seems to be similar to 4e Skill Challenges – X Successes before Y failures. With Y called the Threshold set by either the highest Valour or Wisdom (plus minus mods). X being set by the GM but in general with a 2+ meaning success, X-2 being a 'Yes But" success and X+ being a "Yes And" success (levels of success inferred from Tales of The Wilderland). A great success on a skill check nets you 2 successes and an extraordinary success nets you 3 successes.

Then there is the division between Introduction and Interaction. I think this is a cool, very much in-genre addition but the text doesn’t do a good job of how this is suppose to work either. In general, an NPC will favor either a spokesperson or individual introductions. And an NPC might a favor a particular skill (e.g., courtesy, awe). What happens if you ‘fail’ to introduce yourself? TNs go up for the subsequent interaction?

Also the math is very obscured so it’s hard to figure out. What is a hard Encounter vs. medium vs. easy? How does this change when all PCs can contribute vs. only one? What are general expected values for skills for new characters (3 as highest?), medium experienced characters?

I know the One Ring is a little more free flowing than d20 but since there is a structured subsystem for major social interaction (which I think is a good thing) then seems like it could have been organized better and the underlying math outlined as a guide for the GM.

Can anyone clarify Encounters? Anyone done the math? How does it run in play?

I am not clear on how the game mechanics for this are supposed to flow either.

Basically, the player-heroes encounter an important Loremaster character that they need something from. The encounter rules are there to measure just how successful they are at getting what they came for. Therefore, a Tolerance rating needs to be established. The Tolerance rating allows a Loremaster to know when the group has stopped being effective and will gain nothing more from the conversation.

The two phases of an encounter are there to give some structure and to emulate the formalities of these events among Middle-earth's various cultures. So, the obvious breakdown is Introduction phase and Interaction phase.

The heroes make rolls during the Introduction (with one spokesperson or several) using either Awe, Courtesy, or Riddle. If they succeed, then they may go on to the Interaction phase. Sometimes a failure at the Introduction stage will shut down the conversation altogether regardless of the Tolerance rating. This is entirely up to the Loremaster according to the specifics of the encounter.

During the Interaction phase, the player-heroes will speak to the Loremaster character and make dice rolls to go along with their statements, reactions, and questions. If they are listening to the Loremaster character talk and want to observe and listen carefully, they make an Insight roll. If they wish to address a crowd or uplift spirits, they make an Inspire roll. If they want to make points or give facts, they make a Persuade roll. If they want to ask questions and gather information, they make a Riddle roll. If they want to gain approval or impress the Loremaster character in some way, they can make a Song roll.

Each time they make a skill roll, the Loremaster should keep track of how successful they were and add up the total number of successes. As soon as the Tolerance rating has been exceeded, however, the characters can keep roleplaying, but the level of favour they have gained does not increase any more.

I like to allow my players to roleplay their characters and then I decide what skill they are using and have them make a roll. Sometimes I have them narrate the outcome of their own actions and I narrate the Loremaster character's response.

The Loremaster's Screen gives two great tables to showing the structure of encounters and how evaluate them. Seven + successes is suggested as the best outcome possible.

jamesrbrown wrote:Each time they make a skill roll, the Loremaster should keep track of how successful they were and add up the total number of successes.

Note that the idea of counting successes to earn a reward is an idea not found in Adventures Over the Edge of the Wild, so don't go looking for it there. It first appears in Tales from Wilderland. The point of an encounter, however, is not to earn a reward but to interact with an NPC to achieve your goals.

As soon as the Tolerance rating has been exceeded, however, the characters can keep roleplaying, but the level of favour they have gained does not increase any more.

Actually, when you exceed the Tolerance, the NPC has decided he's had enough of you, and refuses to cooperate further. You're not allowed to attempt any more tasks in this encounter.

It's unclear whether "exceeding" Tolerance means getting a number of failures equal to Tolerance, or getting a number of failures at least equal to Tolerance +1. The rule book says it both ways.

jamesrbrown wrote:Basically, the player-heroes encounter an important Loremaster character that they need something from. The encounter rules are there to measure just how successful they are at getting what they came for.

Yeah, I get the general idea of the Encounter structure and I’m familiar with similar outcome determination structures from D&D 4e, FATE, and some other games. What I’m not clear on is the specifics of this One Ring version and the mechanical implications. Here’re some specifics examples of unclear areas for me:

* You mentioned that on a failed Introduction, the Loremaster could say the characters don’t even get to the interaction phase. Ok, that’s probably valid in some cases but the Encounter guidance seems to intend the introduction to be one roll per PC. So if the single spokesman fails his one roll than the Encounter is over? That pretty much sucks and is exactly what an extended contest is suppose to avoid. So, maybe the introduction is intended to be multiple rolls? Ok, how does that work -- how many successes needed in the intro, do failures count toward the Encounter tolerance? Or perhaps the Loremaster should just raise the TN on the interaction phase if the introduction fails. But what do those raised TNs do to the overall odds of success for the Encounter?

* Speaking of odds. What are the approximate odds for a party with average social skills of 3 to succeed at a 2 success before 2 failure Encounter at TN14? What about 2 successes before 3 failures? What about 6 successes before 2 failures? I have no idea, which makes it pretty hard to design Encounters to fit the level of in-story difficulty I have in mind. I think one of the big advantages to structure like this is that you should be able to say-- Ok, for Encounter A the average party should have an approx. chance of 30% failure, 50% success, and 20% great success based on X successes before Y failure. If the party has a dwarf the encounter is harder so subtract 1 from the tolerance. This results in the odds shifting to 50% failure, 45% success, 5% great success. Right now, I have no idea how a lowering of tolerance by one effects the odds.

* What are the implications on odds of success of an interaction where the party face with high social skills can make all the rolls vs. an interaction where the entire party needs to say something and has to use a mix of high and low skills?

* How does the interaction stop before tolerance is hit (or does it)? In an Encounter with a tolerance of 2, say the count was 3 successes and 1 failure. 2 successes is a good result but 5 successes is a fantastic result. Do you hint to the players that they have succeeded but could be even more successful if they keep going? What happens if on their next roll they fail and hit the tolerance? Are their successes completely invalidated or do they get the result for 3 success with no hope of more? Asked in another way -- are there negative consequences for hitting tolerance (besides not being able to get more successes) or should players always try to accumulate as many successes as possible and be ok with hitting tolerance?

Now, you could say just don’t worry about it too much and you can wing it. But then that defeats the purpose of having this kind of outcome determination structure.

When players grind to a halt during an encounter but have not yet run out of tolerance, I have, where appropriate allowed the encounter to have a break. An example is where they had an elven guide from Lorien and weren't even sure about the finer details of what they were enquiring about. The encounter therefore played out over various camps and marches as they journeyed through the Gladden Fields.

The introduction could also alter the difficulty of the tests of the encounter - while a Sauron and failure could mean the encounter is over before it even starts (where one person acts as spokesman), a basic failure might simply increase the difficulty (such as a dwarf appearing surly to woodmen). You could adjust the difficulty for each player based on their own introductions - which means that if a player fails, he may keep quiet in the encounter to avoid ruining it for everyone (maybe increase his difficulty by 2 levels for a Sauron). By the same token, a really good introduction could reduce the difficulty for the character - which could mean for example letting the hobbit speak even though he is not normally the front man of the group because for whatever reason Thranduil has taken a shine to him.

Stormcrow wrote:

jamesrbrown wrote:Each time they make a skill roll, the Loremaster should keep track of how successful they were and add up the total number of successes.

Note that the idea of counting successes to earn a reward is an idea not found in Adventures Over the Edge of the Wild, so don't go looking for it there. It first appears in Tales from Wilderland. The point of an encounter, however, is not to earn a reward but to interact with an NPC to achieve your goals.

I did not say that the purpose of counting successes in an encounter is to earn a reward. I said it was to measure how successful the player-heroes are at getting what they came for, which is namely help. Tales from Wilderland, p. 6 states that counting successes is "a new way for the Loremaster to evaluate the performance of the company." It does not say anything about rewards either. So, I think we are in agreement. You're quote sounded argumentative.

jamesrbrown wrote:As soon as the Tolerance rating has been exceeded, however, the characters can keep roleplaying, but the level of favour they have gained does not increase any more.

Stormcrow wrote:Actually, when you exceed the Tolerance, the NPC has decided he's had enough of you, and refuses to cooperate further. You're not allowed to attempt any more tasks in this encounter.

True that player-heroes may not attempt tasks, but roleplaying may continue, that is why I said "keep roleplaying" and did not say making rolls. Here's what the Loremaster's Guide says, p. 53, "The Loremaster and his players may continue to play the scene, but from a gaming perspective everything has been said and done. The adventurers will be left to deal with the consequences of the encounter, whether their aims have been fulfilled or not."

Stormcrow wrote:It's unclear whether "exceeding" Tolerance means getting a number of failures equal to Tolerance, or getting a number of failures at least equal to Tolerance +1. The rule book says it both ways.

Ok, so here are the paragraphs in question from the Loremaster's Guide, p. 52: "When this happens, the Loremaster sets up a Tolerance rating for the encounter, indicating the maximum number of rolls that the companions may collectively fail before their behaviour puts an end to their chances of getting further assistance or cooperation.

When the company fails a number of rolls in excess of the tolerance rating set for the encounter, the meeting is essentially over: from that moment on, the players may not propose or attempt any further tasks."

I have underlined the two key words needed for understanding this. Tolerance rating sets the maximum number of rolls the company can collectively fail before... In other words, if they fail one more time after they have reached the Tolerance rating, they can get no further assistance or cooperation. The next paragraph confirms and clarifies that by using the word "excess" and clearly spelling it out.

Comparing it to 4E skill challenges is a fair analogy.

Something I recommend: if the mechanics seems "forced" at all, I highly recommend having die rolls made if/when you're uncertain if something a player/PC said should have any impact or not. Otherwise progress the ongoing encounter more fluidly and based on what you believe should happen. The rules in the Aventures book and the Loremasters book about skill tests specifically suggest to LMs to only have die rolls made when they are really needed and if failure actually carries some negative impact.

For the "introduction" sequence of encounters - this is the approach that has worked for me thus far.

step 1. TOLERANCE is known to the LM (i do not disclose this to the player). The character can attempt a INSIGHT roll first to know which skill may be best served in the encounter with this particular NPC. (with a Greater or Extra success, I will hint or tell respectively the Tolerance)... "You are dealing with a man that no doubt respects valor in others....he is rather cantankerous and is obviously be put off by the elf in your group - you believe you must tread lightly and have little chance of fully convincing him to aid you. There is no doubt the man has little tolerance for your group this day" (think of Gandalf coaching Pippin when dealing Denethor...)

step 2. The individual players now attempt to introduce themselves. Using info learned from INSIGHT success, or winging it blindly hoping for the best. (some may wish to remain mum on this part, and allow another to speak for them).

i.e.
AWE: "I am Bilbo Baggins the barrel rider, slayer of spiders!"
PERSUADE "I am Bilbo Baggins, and I have come bearing grave new that requires your immediate involvement, please hear me out!"
RIDDLE: "I am but an unimportant Hobbit who has traveled from afar to pay homage to you and your people"
INSPIRE: "No where in my travels have I ever seen some splendor in one's halls. I am Bilbo, and your home leaves me breathless!" or "I am Bilbo of the Shire; tales of your valor and the might of your people have traveled even there - though I can see already that the tales hardly do you justice!"
COURTESY: "I am Bilbo, great lord. (bows) You owe me nothing I am aware, but I come to you on the eve of turmoil
in hopes that you will lend me your ears to hear my tale in full."

After the "introduction" they make their attempts with their skills (Evoking traits and distinctive features in this step is always a wonderful tool).

Step 3 - After determining how well they succeeded on their intro - those players can take an active role in the "negotiations".
(as a side note - I allow those who failed and those remained mum during introductions to still chime in so as to not remove them from the game's fun - though the TN for any skill test to sway the conversation is increased by 2.). The NPC responds to them in kind based on the results of step 2. "It has been years since I had the company of a hobbit in these halls. I find their courage in spite of their lacking size to be quite inspiring. I will hear your tale, great Bilbo slayer of spiders!"

Step 4 - The players state their spiel.

Step 5 - LM rolls any required tests, and NPC responds in kind. (Note, if something a player says is too good for an NPC to ignore, consider an auto-success on the test, and don't ask for a roll. Obviously anything they say that is counter or questionable should be tested).

Step 6 - Once this has happened, determine the number of success in step 5 vs the number of failures. If the failures are greater than the predetermined TOLERANCE, then the NPC is less inclined to acquiesce to the PC's requests. (Note, instead of a flat, NO, perhaps, they can instead "earn" a second chance.).

For example - assuming a failed encounter - NPC: "Hmmmm.....I do not possess the means to grant you this without counsel. Unfortunately, the one person with whom I believe would persuade me otherwise, is late in his arrival. He was expected two days ago, having set out from Rivendell last month. Perhaps if you seek out his trail and assure his safe arrival, we can reconvene regarding your concerns." (queue next adventure goal).


In the Tales of the Wild, it introduced success tiers, and rewards associated with them. This is a nice addition, but it isn't the original design, nor does it need to be omnipotent in all encounters. The original design was more of an all or nothing; but as it has been noted in the past, a "nothing" result kills potential adventures. With some encounters, the rewards tiers adds some nice dimensions, though. And adding in my suggestion above with allowing to reconvene after the PCs proved themselves, is also another nice way to give the PCs another chance, while adding more dimension to the adventure itself. Most of that is not written in stone, of course - so narrate that based on the outcomes of the encounter (had the PCs succeed, then the "counsel" had just arrived that morning).


ANECDOTE

here's a recent example of "rewards tier" via encounter. Set-up: Wife and I are buying new home. We went to (big orange logo construction supply store that sponsors a NASCAR team) to discuss carpet install. Being short on spending cash due to down-payment, we are intent on getting the store credit card (no interest for 18 months) deal, but we can't take out a new credit line with home in escrow due to lenders being so finicky about such things. BUT we needed to order carpet NOW in order to have it delivered and ready to install at the close Escrow so we can move out of our current place ASAP. So waiting for escrow to close before getting credit and ordering carpet would mean three more weeks in our current location.....

GOAL: Wanted to see if we could order carpet now in cash to get it on its way, then when escrow closes, 'cancel order' or be 'reimbursed' and then paid for on card.

TOLERANCE: Have no idea; but not not too low I would imagine. They want the business afterall. We were both humans with same culture

INSIGHT: I determined the guy was a southern gentleman based on his accent and mannerism - Courtesy would go a long way.

DISCUSSION: I explained the situation, played the "woe is me" card, and needing a hero to rescue us so that we can have our dreamhouse - going for heartstrings.

RESULTS: The guy couldn't allow us to do it, but wasn't sure he couldn't either. My successes in diplomacy garnered him at least taking extra steps. He called three different higher ups in an effort to help us, with no sure answer. He offered to call the super high up district manager or some sort back East, took our number, and promised to call us back later in the week after he has it all worked out. THEN he called over the coordinator for carpet, and told him that we were his special guest, and asked that the "Measuring fee to be waived" (which is $50.00), and got it all scheduled for us.

I would say in the end, it may be something they simply can't do (due to the way their ordering of sub-contracted install labor is scheduled etc) - but my successes at least unlocked a couple of tiers of rewards.

Robert

jamesrbrown wrote:

Stormcrow wrote:

jamesrbrown wrote:Each time they make a skill roll, the Loremaster should keep track of how successful they were and add up the total number of successes.

Note that the idea of counting successes to earn a reward is an idea not found in Adventures Over the Edge of the Wild, so don't go looking for it there. It first appears in Tales from Wilderland. The point of an encounter, however, is not to earn a reward but to interact with an NPC to achieve your goals.

I did not say that the purpose of counting successes in an encounter is to earn a reward. I said it was to measure how successful the player-heroes are at getting what they came for, which is namely help. Tales from Wilderland, p. 6 states that counting successes is "a new way for the Loremaster to evaluate the performance of the company." It does not say anything about rewards either. So, I think we are in agreement. You're quote sounded argumentative.

I didn't say you said reward. I was finishing your incomplete idea: "add up the total number of successes"... for some reason.

In any case, the rule in Tales is indeed for earning a reward. In all the examples of this in the published adventures, X number of successes leads you to situation Y, and so on. Your reward is a superior outcome. In some cases, it is a literal reward, where you get more money the more successes you get.

Ok, so here are the paragraphs in question from the Loremaster's Guide, p. 52: "When this happens, the Loremaster sets up a Tolerance rating for the encounter, indicating the maximum number of rolls that the companions may collectively fail before their behaviour puts an end to their chances of getting further assistance or cooperation.

Exactly. So if the Tolerance is 3, and you fail three times, you have now put an end to your chances of getting further assistance or cooperation; i.e., after the third failure, the encounter is over.

jamesrbrown wrote:True that player-heroes may not attempt tasks, but roleplaying may continue, that is why I said "keep roleplaying" and did not say making rolls.

As for continuing the encounter once you've exceeded Tolerance, whatever that means, that's just table-dressing. The NPC will not cooperate with anything you try to do. He'll ignore you, he'll shoo you away, he'll get his friends to taunt you, he'll attack you, whatever. You can't get any more information, aid, bargains, promises, or goodwill out of him. You're wasting your time.

Thanks. Regardless of Tolerance or Tolerance +1 it seems like the designer intent was to have no additional negative consequences (besides you can’t get any more successes) from getting Tolerance/Tolerance +1 failures. PCs do not lose the benefit of accumulated successes. You don't necessarily "fail" the Encounter by getting Tolerance/Tolerance+1 failures, you just freeze the number of successes. The conversation can continue (small talk) or not depending on the particular NPC. If the PCs have accumulated enough successes for min success then the NPC does not normally get angry with the PCs, throw them out, etc. on Tolerance/Tolerance +1 failures. This is a small issue however...

The big questions still remains regarding the underlying math. Why is this important? Well, when 4e D&D came out the designers set the TNs (DCs) too high and a party with very high applicable skills had a ~20% chance of succeeding on the easiest skill challenge. Also when the math was done, a level 3 challenge turned out to be only 5% more likely to result in success as a level 5 challenge (highest level challenge). Neither of these was the intention of the designers, but it was buried in the extended challenge math. Here’s a link if you want more detail:

http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/gami ... roken.html

The math for The One Ring is much more difficult than d20 because we have more than one die per roll, multiple die types, and symbols which grant potential auto success/failure or multiple successes with one roll.

Any stats experts want to model it out? This would require me to do some heavy studying of my old stat textbooks and I don’t have the time right now.

For starters, it would be interesting to see a table of probabilities assuming level 3 skills and a TN of 14. With the Y axis being the probability of at least Y successes obtained before X failures and the X axis being Tolerance (or Tolerance +1 if you want it that way). Y = 0 to 10, X = 1 to 6. Then the same table for level 2 skills and level 4 skills. Then the same table for TN 16 and TN of 12.

This would be immensely helpful for the Loremaster. Without knowing these probabilities, I'm not sure whether the debate on Tolerance vs. Tolerance +1 is even a big deal or not!