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Hi,

One of the other players in the game I play was allowed to swap out one of his starting traits for Shadow-lore.

We already have two Wardens in the fellowship, so it's not something that adds a lot of utility to the party, i.e. he's not mechanically overshadowing anyone or anything like that. As one of the Wardens I do feel like I've lost something, however - something that helps define the uniqueness of my character.

Now I know the Loremaster gets to choose what happens in their own game, and I'm not looking for a ruling. I am wondering if this is:
a) rules as written
b) something good or something bad - looking for an objective perspective here as obviously I'm partisan

Thanks, appreciate any insight you can offer.

Under RAW, old Distinctive features and Specialities can be swapped out for new ones, though some care should be taken not to completely reinvent the character. Note that the entry from page 172 of the original Adventurer's Book has been revised.

A player who has played his adventurer for a long time might eventually grow tired of the set of Traits belonging to his hero, and feel the need for a change. During a Fellowship phase, a player may replace an old Distinctive feature or Speciality with a new one.

Players looking for a change should exercise some common sense when they choose the new Trait, and the old one being replaced, to avoid completely reinventing their characters. Note that changing a Speciality does not mean that the character has forgotten his prior talent -- but that it does not represent one of his peculiar qualities as it perhaps once did, as he put that feature aside to focus on other pursuits.

The new Trait may be chosen from any list of Distinctive features or Specialities, or even invented by the player (who in this case needs to approval of the Loremaster).

EDIT (05/10/18): Swapping out Class Traits and the associated Shadow weaknesses and Flaws should probably be disallowed.

I have never encountered this, I guess as RAW it is allowed. But as LM I wouldn't as I would go by RAI. Calling is pretty important it decides the reason for adventuring, the potential direction a character will go if they are corrupted, and the Calling trait. While that trait is technically a specialty, I don't think it should be treated the same way as specialties gotten from a culture. If this is allowed it begs the question on if players can swap out flaws (as those are also distinctive features) or what about virtues of cultural blessings that grant an extra distinctive feature. The Ranger's Foresight of their Kindred, or Hobbits Small Folk.

There is a notation on distinctive qualities in the AiMe Player's Guide (page 121) that I would also apply to Distinctive features in TOR:

It's worth noting that any distinctive quality can be found amongst members of any background;
those listed in each background description are merely the most commonly associated with those backgrounds. You are free to select any distinctive quality for your character for your character regardless of what background you belong.

I was thinking that I had already seen a similar notation for TOR, but if so, I cannot seem to find it.

Otaku-sempai wrote: ↑

Thu May 10, 2018 3:55 pm

There is a notation on distinctive qualities in the AiMe Player's Guide (page 121) that I would also apply to Distinctive features in TOR:

It's worth noting that any distinctive quality can be found amongst members of any background;
those listed in each background description are merely the most commonly associated with those backgrounds. You are free to select any distinctive quality for your character for your character regardless of what background you belong.

I was thinking that I had already seen a similar notation for TOR, but if so, I cannot seem to find it.

That's not the same thing as Calling specialities though.

Hamarr wrote: ↑

Thu May 10, 2018 3:33 pm

I have never encountered this, I guess as RAW it is allowed. But as LM I wouldn't as I would go by RAI. Calling is pretty important it decides the reason for adventuring, the potential direction a character will go if they are corrupted, and the Calling trait. While that trait is technically a specialty, I don't think it should be treated the same way as specialties gotten from a culture.

I'm the same. I'd simply assumed that the Speciality associated with a Calling was specific to that Calling, and not allowed for any other character of a different Calling, but I can't see anything in the rules that states this, unless I'm missing it. I'm the same as you though and not allow a character to select a Speciality associated with another calling except in the rarest of cases and with some exceptional reasoning.

Hamarr wrote: ↑

Thu May 10, 2018 3:33 pm

If this is allowed it begs the question on if players can swap out flaws (as those are also distinctive features) or what about virtues of cultural blessings that grant an extra distinctive feature. The Ranger's Foresight of their Kindred, or Hobbits Small Folk.

I don't think so; you just have to think about the way Flaws are acquired, they just aren't swapped out or anything. And Virtues and Cultural Blessings are a different element of the system so those aren't really treated the same either.

I suppose my question would be is this a character that is just starting out on their journeys or has this character already been through several adventures? If just starting out, I would ask why he wants that calling if he doesn't want the specialty. You can MAKE your own calling if he wants the specific skill groups and create a unique specialty to go with it.

If he's changing it after several adventures, than I could see his reasons for adventuring, his calling essentially changing at least on a personality level, and I'd probably be more lenient and allow it.

Starting out though...I'd probably try to figure out what he's really after, why he wants to swap it, especially if there are already 2 others with it.

Rich H wrote: ↑

Thu May 10, 2018 4:10 pm

That's not the same thing as Calling specialities though.

No, and I was specifically writing about Distinctive features. I was about going to backtrack to address the very point you've raised, but here is as good as anywhere.

I can certainly see making an exception that disallows swapping for Class Traits and the associated Shadow weaknesses and Flaws. This ties in with the warning in RAW that states: "Players looking for a change should exercise some common sense when they choose the new Trait, and the old one being replaced, to avoid completely reinventing their characters."

Red Haired Thor wrote: ↑

Thu May 10, 2018 4:16 pm

I suppose my question would be is this a character that is just starting out on their journeys or has this character already been through several adventures? If just starting out, I would ask why he wants that calling if he doesn't want the specialty. You can MAKE your own calling if he wants the specific skill groups and create a unique specialty to go with it.

If he's changing it after several adventures, than I could see his reasons for adventuring, his calling essentially changing at least on a personality level, and I'd probably be more lenient and allow it.

That's not quite what is being discussed. The way I'm reading the OP is that a player is (potentially) swapping out a non-Calling related Speciality, such as Swimming, for a Calling specific one that they don't have - such as Shadow Lore.

That's not quite what is being discussed. The way I'm reading the OP is that a player is (potentially) swapping out a non-Calling related Speciality, such as Swimming, for a Calling specific one that they don't have - such as Shadow Lore.

Ah, you are right, I did miss that. That seems...odd. I feel that definitely dilutes the importance of a calling if you can swap them out like that. Again, I could see it happening in play. Like if you say were trying to cross the Anduin and were attacked by a river monster, you may find your character becoming afraid of running water but far more interested in learning about monsters...

But at the start? I would need a lot of convincing to allow that swap.

So my question does still apply for my answer.

Through play? I might allow it.
At the start? Probably not.