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It seems woefully under powered to begin with, I can easily see an argument for it just applying in all situations where the attacking PC is a *not* a servant of Shadow.

Probably best to wait for Gareth and Francesco to comment as to what the designer's intentions were. It may be as simple as goblins and orcs, and possibly trolls.

I would say it covers Orc, Uruks, Goblins, (for the most part) Olug hai (possibly other trolls).

Otaku-sempai wrote:

Yusei wrote:I agree with Beran, spiders are not servants of the Shadow, nor are other animals or creatures who are not actively plotting against the Free People.

The giant spiders are not natural creatures, though, are they? They are demon-spiders descended from Ungoliant and Shelob. I would definitely count them as servants of Shadow.

Agreed. These are generally considered to be spirits that take spider form. Ditto for some of the other servants of the Enemy, such as Werewolves.

I'm liking where this is going.

Wargs? Yea or nea? I'm not sure we have enough history to ensure they were created by Morgoth.

Wargs are corrupted wolves, like Orcs are corrupted elves.

So they qualify. Particularly under my 'anything with a hate score' definition.

Mim wrote:

Otaku-sempai wrote:

Yusei wrote:I agree with Beran, spiders are not servants of the Shadow, nor are other animals or creatures who are not actively plotting against the Free People.

The giant spiders are not natural creatures, though, are they? They are demon-spiders descended from Ungoliant and Shelob. I would definitely count them as servants of Shadow.

Agreed. These are generally considered to be spirits that take spider form. Ditto for some of the other servants of the Enemy, such as Werewolves.

Going on that logic path orcs, goblins, trolls, wolves and wargs aren't servants of the shadow then. Ungoliqnt started out as a follower of Melkor, but struck out on her own at which point she ceased being a sevant of the shadow. In the books shelob is basically doing her own thing as well , she wasn't an active agent of the enemy. All agents of the shadow are evil, but not all evil are agents of the shadow.

Otaku-sempai wrote:

Yusei wrote:I agree with Beran, spiders are not servants of the Shadow, nor are other animals or creatures who are not actively plotting against the Free People.

The giant spiders are not natural creatures, though, are they? They are demon-spiders descended from Ungoliant and Shelob. I would definitely count them as servants of Shadow.

So both terms are up for interpretation. Both "Servant" and "the Shadow" could be literal or figurative.

That's why I call it 'anything with a hate score.'

Shadow Bane is a ridiculously weak virtue as it is. Weakening it further is worse then pointless.

(and if you think it isn't weak, do the math! Just by what percentage does it really help you? It MIGHT be worth it if you've got a 2d weapon skill, but 3d+? You're going to hit anyway.)

I agree, it's a very weak virtue, since it gives you a bonus when you don't need one. It needs a lot more fixing than just giving the bonus against all creatures.