Shadow Bane clarification

[Beran]

Personally, I think it needs to be clarified what is a Shadow agent and what isn't. Second, the more powerful Shadow agents (Nazgul in particular) need to be beefed way up. The Nazgul are something to be terrified of, but when I read their stats in DoM I went "Meh." A character that has been campaigning for a moderate amount of time are their equal...and that is not the way it should be. When a Nazgul takes the field the first thought in PCs mind should be "RUN!" Hell, they should be thinking about running when faced with a group of Uruks or War Trolls. You start giving this class of agent the parry rating they sould have then a +3 to attack rolls comes in pretty friggin' useful.

The problem with the system is the power creep, PCs just become too powerful way too quickly.

[Glorelendil]

That's why I call it 'anything with a hate score.'

Shadow Bane is a ridiculously weak virtue as it is. Weakening it further is worse then pointless.

(and if you think it isn't weak, do the math! Just by what percentage does it really help you? It MIGHT be worth it if you've got a 2d weapon skill, but 3d+? You're going to hit anyway.)

Take an opponent with parry of 3 and shield of 2, for a total TN in Forward Stance of 11:

Skill 3, TN 11: Miss 17% (includes automatic misses from EoS)
Skill 3, TN 8 (i.e. +3): Miss 10%

Skill 3, TN 11, Weary: Miss 37%
Skill 3, TN 8, Weary: Miss 23%

Clearly Shadow Bane really shines when weary, but even not weary it's not useless. Of course, it becomes less valuable at higher weapon skill levels.

EDIT: Here's the source code (in Ruby) if anybody wants to check my work: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7291990/dice.rb

EDIT2: Maybe an improvement would be that it adds a skill die? That becomes a 3.5 bonus instead of 3, but it also gives you an extra chance for a Tengwar, which is useful regardless of skill level. Would want a tighter definition of "Servant of the Shadow" in that case.

[Yusei]

Second, the more powerful Shadow agents (Nazgul in particular) need to be beefed way up. The Nazgul are something to be terrified of, but when I read their stats in DoM I went "Meh."

Well, the book says they are "but a dark reflection of what the Nine will become in sixty years time". Sure, they are not the strongest fighters, but their special abilities are scary (even more so if they are together). On the other hand, they are not supposed to be fighting armies, but to be plotting in the shadows. The Werewolf is a much stronger adversary in DoM.

[Beran]

Second, the more powerful Shadow agents (Nazgul in particular) need to be beefed way up. The Nazgul are something to be terrified of, but when I read their stats in DoM I went "Meh."

Well, the book says they are "but a dark reflection of what the Nine will become in sixty years time". Sure, they are not the strongest fighters, but their special abilities are scary (even more so if they are together). On the other hand, they are not supposed to be fighting armies, but to be plotting in the shadows. The Werewolf is a much stronger adversary in DoM.

The Lieutenant of Dol Guldur has a parry rating of 7! That basically makes him a fighter on equal level with the Woodman Pregen in the AB. These are undead versions of warrior kings of old...even a pale shadow of themselves should still have the bravest Captain of Gondor soiling his armour at the possiblitly of facing one. The Nazgul should be hard to beat at this time period and in the time of the War of the Ring they should be nigh unstoppable. I can't wait to see the stats of Durin's Bane they should be quite amusing.

[Angelalex242]

And Elfcrusher just did the math on why I call Shadow Bane 'weary insurance.'

That being the case, 'anything with a Hate Score' sounds fair to me, simply because it's not that strong in the first place.

Now, if it was to hit AND Damage (Both weapon damage and damage rating...) then yes, we need to tighten the definition of servant of the Shadow. As it is, though...+7% chance to hit isn't really worth restricting the virtue more then 'anything with a hate value.'

[Otaku-sempai]

So both terms are up for interpretation. Both "Servant" and "the Shadow" could be literal or figurative.

Okay, I see where this is going. Metaphorically, the giant spiders are servants of shadow but, as a group, they are not literally agents of the Shadow. I can live with that interpretation.

[Glorelendil]

So both terms are up for interpretation. Both "Servant" and "the Shadow" could be literal or figurative.

Okay, I see where this is going. Metaphorically, the giant spiders are servants of shadow but, as a group, they are not literally agents of the Shadow. I can live with that interpretation.

Right. Like when the local minister says that rap music is the work of the devil. I don't think he literally means that Satan composed the lyrics, or even that 50 Cent is (knowingly) in league with Beelzebub.

Or maybe he does....

[Beran]

So, every adversary the PCs run up against are Agents of the Shadow is what you are saying. Be they Nazgul or Dunlendings as they will all have Hate scores. If that is how you want to run things that is fine, but making everything that is "evil" in M-E a servant of Sauron just doesn't make sense to me.

[Angelalex242]

Not everything that is evil, everything with a hate score.

Spiders still do wicked things and cast wicked spells. They eat elves and men every chance they get. Whether they work for Sauron directly or not...if the elf's had a couple of his friends eaten by spiders, why wouldn't it apply?

"Yeah, they ate 3 of my friends last year, but since they didn't sign a contract with Sauron himself, I guess I'll go easy on 'em."

Remember the flavor text for Shadow Bane, and ask yourself if that flavor text applies to creatures that most likely ate your friends last year?

[Glorelendil]

Not everything that is evil, everything with a hate score.

Spiders still do wicked things and cast wicked spells. They eat elves and men every chance they get. Whether they work for Sauron directly or not...if the elf's had a couple of his friends eaten by spiders, why wouldn't it apply?

"Yeah, they ate 3 of my friends last year, but since they didn't sign a contract with Sauron himself, I guess I'll go easy on 'em."

Remember the flavor text for Shadow Bane, and ask yourself if that flavor text applies to creatures that most likely ate your friends last year?

So a rabid grizzly bear counts?

By the way, what Adversary does NOT have a hate score?