Shadow Bane clarification

[Angelalex242]

Any adversary among the free peoples doesn't necessarily have a hate score. In the Battle of Five Armies, before Gandalf told everyone to knock it off, everyone about to kill each other had hope scores.

It's up to LM discretion, of course, but any time the foe is human, elf, dwarf, hobbit, whatever, that foe runs on hope, not hate, just like a PC does. The fact he's trying to kill the PC doesn't make him run on hate. If the adversary's a corrupt barding or man of lake town, he's just a barding or a man of lake town with some permanent shadow to his name, not a creature of hate.

To clarify, Gollum is also not a creature of Hate. He's a Hobbit with 5 permanent Shadow, but he's still a creature of Hope.

[Glorelendil]

To clarify, Gollum is also not a creature of Hate. He's a Hobbit with 5 permanent Shadow, but he's still a creature of Hope.

Whoah! How did I miss this? Where do i find Gollum's stat block?

[Angelalex242]

There is none that I know of, any statblock for Gollum would be fan made.

But I'd still write him up as a PCish Hobbit, then stick 5 permanent Shadow on him with negative traits to match his actual behavior in the books.

[Beran]

Any adversary among the free peoples doesn't necessarily have a hate score. In the Battle of Five Armies, before Gandalf told everyone to knock it off, everyone about to kill each other had hope scores.

It's up to LM discretion, of course, but any time the foe is human, elf, dwarf, hobbit, whatever, that foe runs on hope, not hate, just like a PC does. The fact he's trying to kill the PC doesn't make him run on hate. If the adversary's a corrupt barding or man of lake town, he's just a barding or a man of lake town with some permanent shadow to his name, not a creature of hate.

To clarify, Gollum is also not a creature of Hate. He's a Hobbit with 5 permanent Shadow, but he's still a creature of Hope.

Not true. This might be spoiler material so I will keep it generic. There is a group of Men in DoM that are potential allies later on , but their stat block lists a hate score. You'll have to list specfic examples of adversaries who list hope scores rather then hate.

[Angelalex242]

Bah. I wouldn't have written those guys up with a hate score. They're not evil enough to warrant it.

[Beran]

It specifically states in the description of the Hill-man of Gundabad that they no longer serve the Shadow, and yet they have a Hate Score. As far as I can tell every group that may be considered an adversary has has a hate score. Other possible NPCs don't list either hate or hope, but possible useful skills and attributes. As I said before you will have to cite specific examples of an adversary that lists Hope instead of Hate, because I can't find a one in the Core set, HotW or DoM.

[Angelalex242]

Hmm. I guess I can't use Hate score as the basis for what a shadow creature is.

There's many potential adversaries I wouldn't write up with hate, as if to signify to LMs everywhere 'these guys aren't evil, but they may still kill your PCs.'

Well, if that's the case, I'd say it doesn't apply against the free peoples, then. I actually think it makes more sense to apply it to Spiders, who don't directly serve Sauron, then it does to Easterlings and Southrons, who do. Spiders don't have any redeeming value, ultimately, but Easterlings and Southrons COULD be turned against Sauron. They are still men, after all, and therefore still free to choose a better path then serving the Dark Lord.

[Beran]

There are evil characters in Tolkien's works that aren't servants of the shadow, Gollum being the prime example (he is entirely out for himself and his Precious) and in my opinion the Spiders, and the evil races of Men (or at least some of them.)

A thought did occur to me, however. Perhaps the weary insurance is exactly what the spirit of the virtue is trying to bestow. Because it does allow a PC to fight a hated foe (in this case the Shadow) well beyond the point where injury and fatigue would normally diminish his ability to do so. Maybe that was the whole idea from the beginning.

[Angelalex242]

The biggest difference between Spiders and Men currently evil is this, however.

Take a super PC with 6s in awe, inspire, persuade, song, courtesy, and riddle.

Send him as an emissary to the spiders to get them to stop their wicked ways...and he'll get absolutely nowhere.

Send him to easterlings? He just might get them to turn on Sauron.

That's why I say Spiders count as Shadow and evil humans don't. You can't get spiders to be good. You CAN get men to be good.

[Beran]

You could send that same emissary to the Dunlendings and try get them to stop raiding The Mark and you would just as likely get nowhere as well (at least that is the way I would run it). The level of hatred between the two peoples goes too far back in their collective historys.

What is needed is a hard and fast ruling on what creatures are shadow and what ones are not.