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But it doesn't have to. In the 4th Age, it's certain King Elessar is going to send some diplomats to that area to stop the raids and whatnot. And that diplomat will be pretty darn good at it.

I think it's possible to get the Dunlendings to stop raiding. After all, they're raiding for a reason. Mr. Super Diplomat will figure that reason out, and find a more peaceable way to work things.

For the diplomat to fail, the hatred would have to be equivalent to Israeli vs. Muslim levels of hatred in the real world.

Spiders are sentient and can communicate. They might make a deal.

And would you think that Eomer King would sit back and allow a sizable chunck of Rohan be given to the Dunlendings? Because that would be their price.

Beran wrote:And would you think that Eomer King would sit back and allow a sizable chunck of Rohan be given to the Dunlendings? Because that would be their price.

I know where a really nice Arkenstone is just sitting around. They might accept that.

Just sayin'.

Dunlendings really does start to sound like Israel vs. Palestine.

Even so, Eomer might just have to give in order to keep the peace. (With the understanding that if the Dunlendings get greedy for more, Elessar and the rest of his kingdom will WIPE THEM OUT)

And Spiders are sentient, but they're incapable of making moral decisions, no matter how awesome the diplomat. Orcs and Trolls are in the same boat. (Cause if you can redeem Spiders, you can redeem orcs, and you can redeem trolls, and where does it stop? Spiders are one of those 'Always Evil' races.)

Angelalex242 wrote:Dunlendings really does start to sound like Israel vs. Palestine.

Even so, Eomer might just have to give in order to keep the peace. (With the understanding that if the Dunlendings get greedy for more, Elessar and the rest of his kingdom will WIPE THEM OUT)

If that's a believable threat then this 'diplomat' won't have to give up anything in the first place. "Intentions and Capabilities". Google it.

And Spiders are sentient, but they're incapable of making moral decisions, no matter how awesome the diplomat. Orcs and Trolls are in the same boat. (Cause if you can redeem Spiders, you can redeem orcs, and you can redeem trolls, and where does it stop? Spiders are one of those 'Always Evil' races.)

Why does a negotiated settlement have to be "redeeming" or involve moral decisions?

Remember that Elessar rules Arnor and Gondor, not Rohan. But, he certainly wouldn't send an envoy to an enemy of an Ally without the Allies permission first.

"Why does a negotiated settlement have to be "redeeming" or involve moral decisions?"

Exactly, if you could speak fast enough before the Spiders attacked you might be able to make a deal with them for something or other. However, you probably aren't going to like the price of said agreement. Morality is in the eye of the person, the spiders may see Men, Dwarves and Elves as amoral beings...who knows.

The threat's believable, it's just not ethical.

Israel could nuke Palestine off the map with a couple button presses. So why don't they? International sanctions.

Also, Elessar is High King of everything. He has rule over Rohan too. (Recall he tells Pippin and Merry "You are Knights of Gondor and the Mark, and I may recall you.")

Angelalex242 wrote:The threat's believable, it's just not ethical.

Israel could nuke Palestine off the map with a couple button presses. So why don't they? International sanctions.

Funny I can't find Palestine on the map. But in any event...yes, they have the capability, but the threat's still not believable. The fallout...literal and figurative...would be too costly, and the Palestinians know it. If the Israelis said, "Stop blowing up our busses, or we'll nuke you off the map" the Palestinians would laugh.

So it has nothing to do with ethics, but with believability. Intentions and capabilities.

Elessar might very well be able to raise an army, march it up to Rohan, and slaughter all the Dunlendings. But would he? If a negotiator from Rohan made that threat (on Elessar's behalf, no less) would the Dunlendings worry?

I thinketh not.

The simple fact is that military diplomacy can be brutal. If the Dunlendings refused to negotiate and persisted in attacking Rohan then King Elessar would be completely justified in launching a campaign that would decimate the Dunlendings and make them afraid to stray from their hovels for a full generation or two.

I'm not saying that he should, but it is justifiable by the ethical codes of past history.

Does it show that I've recently re-read Eddings' first Sparhawk trilogy?