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We're starting to get D&D 3.5ish.

Are we sure we want that?

Anyways, I still want to see what the optimized route by culture is for the existing system before we run around changing it.

Angelalex242 wrote:We're starting to get D&D 3.5ish.

Are we sure we want that?

How? The D&D route would be that the heaviest armour is the best in combat, which is what you proposed in an earlier post and why Elfcrusher didn't like it (as he didn't really want to explore optimisation in such a way that would lead to 'one true armour option'); he wanted other suggestions that provided less obvious choices so that they could combine with character/player options to create less obvious routes to preferred options in armour choices.

At the moment Elfcrusher's shown that heavier armour is sub-optimal and rather than take the obvious' route and make it the most optimal within combat, and therefore raise the question that every character will end up wearing it, he was more interested in exploring other options, which is something I agree with as I prefer less obvious/boring build choices.

Rich H wrote:

Angelalex242 wrote:We're starting to get D&D 3.5ish.

Are we sure we want that?

How? The D&D route would be that the heaviest armour is the best in combat, which is what you proposed in an earlier post and why Elfcrusher didn't like it, and wanted other suggestions that provided less obvious choices so that they could combine with character options.

At the moment Elfcrusher's shown that heavier armour is sub-optimal and rather than take the obvious' route and make it the most optimal within combat, and therefore raise the question that every character will end up wearing it, he was more interested in exploring other options, which is something I agree with as I prefer less obvious/boring build choices.

I think that one key point of this argument is how often heavy armor should come into play. Personally I think that anything heavier than a chain shirt (which is already a hefty 10 Kg) shouldn't be of common use. With the only possible exception of Dwarves, I don't think that any traveller would ever go through the complication of adding 5-15 Kg to his own luggage. On the other hand during a major engagement (like a siege or a field battle) having a heavier set of armor should provide a significant advantage.
Now, I would love to see a bit more variety of equipment myself, but I don't think that having a game that - for once - makes lighter armor more interesting is bad thing, especially considering that TOR characters are primarily travellers.

Woodclaw wrote:I think that one key point of this argument is how often heavy armor should come into play. Personally I think that anything heavier than a chain shirt (which is already a hefty 10 Kg) shouldn't be of common use. With the only possible exception of Dwarves, I don't think that any traveller would ever go through the complication of adding 5-15 Kg to his own luggage. On the other hand during a major engagement (like a siege or a field battle) having a heavier set of armor should provide a significant advantage.

I think some of my options in the earlier post could be developed/employed to give that - eg:

1) Standard of Living costs to acquire armour types

2) In a battle you're going to get exposed to more Injury Tests and roll more EYEs so one of my rules (number 3 in earlier post) makes heavier armour more useful in that regard but not as useful when just travelling/adventuring.

... etc.

These are all more like the options you look to want based on your post rather than just making heavier armour the, obvious, optimal choice.

Rich H wrote:

Woodclaw wrote:I think that one key point of this argument is how often heavy armor should come into play. Personally I think that anything heavier than a chain shirt (which is already a hefty 10 Kg) shouldn't be of common use. With the only possible exception of Dwarves, I don't think that any traveller would ever go through the complication of adding 5-15 Kg to his own luggage. On the other hand during a major engagement (like a siege or a field battle) having a heavier set of armor should provide a significant advantage.

I think some of my options in the earlier post could be developed/employed to give that - eg:

1) Standard of Living costs to acquire armour types

2) In a battle you're going to get exposed to more Injury Tests and roll more EYEs so one of my rules (number 3 in earlier post) makes heavier armour more useful in that regard but not as useful when just travelling/adventuring.

... etc.

These are all more like the options you look to want based on your post rather than just making heavier armour the, obvious, optimal choice.

Agreed.

Remember that in the Books (yes, intentional capitalization) when our our heroes know they are going into a battle they put on heavier armor. Wearing minimal armor for travel and heavier armor for battle isn't just sensible, it's canon.

Right. But at the moment...as I'm sure you'll prove when you run the numbers, putting on heavier armor for, say, the battle of Helm's deep or the battle of Pelennor fields will only get you killed.

Angelalex242 wrote:Right. But at the moment...as I'm sure you'll prove when you run the numbers, putting on heavier armor for, say, the battle of Helm's deep or the battle of Pelennor fields will only get you killed.

Exactly. Which is why I suggested "encumbrance = fatigue" only kick in when you try to travel in your armor.

There should still be SOME kind of trade-off to the heavier armor, but in the balance you should want it for big battles.

Something like:
1) Create a new advantage for Forward stance, then negate it with heavy armor
2) Only have 50% of endurance count toward fatigue until you've been wearing it for 12 hours.
Etc.

Rich H wrote:
2) Those in heavier armour get bonuses to Awe/Intimidate rolls whether in or out of combat, but have mirrored penalties for Athletic tests. Could also have negative or positive applications to other interactions as someone in armour may be seen as being aggressive, etc - would depend on the circumstances.

Wait. I thought this was already built into the game? We've been doing this from the start. Isn't there an example in one of the books of someone swimming in chain?

At the moment, Mail Hauberks can jump as high and swim as fast as leather shirts. However, the mail hauberk is a deathtrap on the battlefield.