How does fatigue work?

[Otaku-sempai]

Professor Tolkien was often frustratingly vague in his descriptions of armor and equipment. He did describe the gear that Pippin was given when he entered the service of Denethor:

...Pippin soon found himself arrayed in strange garments, all of black and silver. He had a small hauberk, its rings forged of steel, maybe, yet black as jet; and a high-crowned helm with small raven-wings on either side, set with a silver star in the centre of the circlet. Above the mail was a short surcoat of black, but broidered on the breast in silver was the token of the Tree.

Earlier, Tolkien gives a brief description of the Citadel Guards when Gandalf and Pippin pass through the seventh gate of Minas Tirith:

The Guards of the gate were robed in black, and their helms were of strange shape, high-crowned, with long cheek-guards close-fitting to the face, and above the cheek-guards were set the white wings of sea-birds; but the helms gleamed with a flame of silver, for they were indeed wrought of mithril, heirlooms from the glory of old days. Upon the black surcoats were embroidered in white a tree blossoming like snow beneath a silver crown and many-pointed stars. This was the livery of the heirs of Elendil, and none wore it now in all Gondor, save the Guards of the Citadel before the Court of the Fountain where the White Tree once had grown.

What is under the robes of the Guards Tolkien does not say. It could be simple hauberks, with greaves and vambraces, or chain could be augmented with a coat of plates or a metal cuirass (more likely steel than mithril).

[Rocmistro]

4. All of this is really just a question of "how wrong am I to conceive of, in my own head, 5d Armor as being more "plated" and less "chain". Of course, it's my head and I can imagine things however I want to....

This.

I'm puzzled why there is so much discussion over technical/historical definitions of armor terminology. If you want articulated plate, just write "Plate" on your character sheet. Tolkien didn't get any more specific about armor than he did about the shape of axes or the lengths of spears, so your imagination and interpretation are 100% valid.

My concern is that there seems to be no valid mechanical reason to take 5d armor (unless you're a dwarf), and if you want to do so for roleplaying reasons it's at the cost of being a less effective combatant.

The reason it's important, Elfcrusher, is that I have nagging in my mind to follow some level of discipline and canon when it comes to these things. Certainly, PJ went too far with his Gondorian Knights in fully plated, uniform, late renaissance armor. I think we serve the spirit of Middle-earth better when we make some attempt, however intimate and personal that may be, to conform to what we absolutely know of it's image, and to not stray too far when there is ambiguity.

[mogul76]

My concern is that there seems to be no valid mechanical reason to take 5d armor (unless you're a dwarf), and if you want to do so for roleplaying reasons it's at the cost of being a less effective combatant.

Perhaps this issue can be solved by introducing a new Mastery such as

Armour-seasoned

You have become accustomed to moving and fighting in armour.

Reduce the Encumbrance rating of any armour you are wearing by its number of Protection dice.

This Mastery may only be picked once.

Any opinions?

[Michebugio]

In terms of mechanics, I find most solutions to improve heavy armors quite unsatisfying. Don't get me wrong, I've read great ideas, but every mechanic added to the system just doesn't seem to fit. This because armors in TOR are made to do just one thing: improve protection rolls to avoid the WOUNDED condition. And everything else implies new mechanics to be put on top of this simple function, which IMHO shouldn't be made more complex than this.

I think that the key to "improve" armor advantages is to focus on the condition it avoids, that is to say the WOUNDED condition. Reading this topic I feel that many players and LMs are not too worried about characters getting wounded, because it doesn't mean they'll get combat penalties, and they will probaby run out of Endurance way before they get another wound, so WOUNDED is at worst an annoying condition after the combat, that essentially slows down recovery but doesn't do much else. Plus, the healer in the group will take care of it quite easily.

My advice is: get the WOUNDED condition worse, and heavy armor will become more of a choice. Some suggestions: give enemies some ways to increase the wounding TN of their attacks (example: 2 enemies "flanking" the same character get +2 to their wounding TN; big opponents can choose to lower their attack dices to increase the probability and TN of wounding blows, etc.); add some kind of "bleed" effect to WOUNDED characters, or some other nasty effect, like sepsis and the like; add other kinds of limitations to WOUNDED characters in combat (a common house rule is that wounded characters are also fatigued, but you can be more creative); etc...

Personally I'm using a home rule which mimics the Great Size of some monsters, adds to the epicness of the game and makes armors more important.
My players don't become dying when reduced to 0 Endurance. Instead, they become EXHAUSTED: a character that is EXHAUSTED has a Parry of 0, and he counts only the 6s (tengwars) when rolling dices (dice results of 1 to 5 count as 0). They have 0 Endurance and more blows don't reduce it further: instead, every successful blow is considered a Penetrating Strike that doesn't deal Endurance damage. If a player gets WOUNDED when EXHAUSTED, he drops and he is dying; if he was already WOUNDED when his Endurance drops to 0, he is dying as well.

So to an EXHAUSTED character, heavy armor becomes very important.

Using this rule you can increase the difficulty of encounters a bit, since your players will be tougher and you may want to reduce their Endurance to zero more often, since it's now a less severe condition, putting at the same time more value on the armor one wears.

[DavetheLost]

OK, I just went back and have the sections of the rules on Endurance loss, being Wounded, and Healing a good reread.

First as a side note, it seems that a dying character may recover conciousness with 1 point of Endurance if allowed to rest for a prolonged period after being given the mortal wound. Death from an untreated mortal wound occurs in about 12 hours, a prolonged rest such as a night's sleep restores one point of Endurance. So they may be concious, able to walk slowly, etc, but will still die without successful treatment of the wound.

Second being Wounded does bring the risk of unconsciousness and/or Dying into combat. At 0 Endurance the character will fall unconscious. If also Wounded the character will be Dying. If Wounded twice the character is unconscious, and may be dying if Endurance is zero or less.

Third Wounded heroes whether with treated or untreated wounds recover Endurance more slowly than do unfounded ones.

While this does make being Wounded something to avoid, the condition has in it self no effect on a hero's combat capabilities. There is an indirect effect from the slower recovery of Endurance, the hero will be able to bear less fatigue before becoming Weary.

I am not at all convinced that the trade off of starting combat with higher Fatigue (from heavy armour) for better protection against being Wounded is worth it. Especially for characters with low Endurance scores.

I agree fully that the proper approach to fixing this, if it needs fixing, I haven't run enough combats in play to see if it actually needs fixing, is to make being Wounded of more consequence. It does seem odd to me that a blow that pierces armour and causes lasting damage which requires treatment and some time to heal has no effect whatsoever on fighting ability.

[Robin Smallburrow]

One of the first house rules I made was that a character who is Wounded is treated as if Weary, and one who is both Wounded AND weary also ignores 1-3 on the feat die

I like the suggestions made earlier that wearing armour s/be a skill or mastery

Robin S.

[Angelalex242]

Hmmm. Most solutions so far seem to be 'let's screw players over MORE' rather then 'let's make armor fun to wear.'

Be wary of amping up the difficulty for no gain.

[Yusei]

Be wary of amping up the difficulty for no gain.

A higher difficulty can be the gain. It means you have to be smart and creative, which is (in my opinion) more fun than being a one man army that can destroy armies of orcs without breaking a sweat. My only complaint with TOR is that it gets too easy too quickly.

[Michebugio]

Hmmm. Most solutions so far seem to be 'let's screw players over MORE' rather then 'let's make armor fun to wear.'

Be wary of amping up the difficulty for no gain.

A higher difficulty can be the gain. It means you have to be smart and creative, which is (in my opinion) more fun than being a one man army that can destroy armies of orcs without breaking a sweat. My only complaint with TOR is that it gets too easy too quickly.

This.

I don't think that in TOR players get "screwed", in fact in my experience is exactly the opposite: we played Marsh Bells and we're starting ToW and my impression is that characters are a bit "cuddled" in the pre-made encounters (and I still haven't a single character with a weapon skill above 2).

No real danger means less fun, more so if you want a "survival" style for your games. Combat is serious stuff and not just "getting tired", and players should be exposed to wounding threats often. Also, a wound should be exactly a WOUND. Even in the books people die from wounds after a fight, or get close to it (think about Faramir, for example).

What I mean is that I would really like to hear my players say: "Damn, this armor got me WEARY so soon. Well, at least I'm not WOUNDED!"

[DavetheLost]

It is not that I want to screw the players over more, or at all, but I would like being Wounded to hurt. I also would like wearing armour to be meaningful. Experienced heroes being able to mow down orcs by the score fits the fiction, but Trolls should be tough and fearsome opponents.

At present heavy armour is really only a viable option for Dwarves. It makes some sense that Elves would shun heavy armour, and that Hobbits would have difficulty with the bulk and weight, but Men should be able to gain advantage from donning armour.

I think that to many of us armour in TOR just isn't giving the "feel" we want.