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Re: What attribute level would a Balrog be?
Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:01 pm
by PaulButler
Stormcrow wrote:
I prefer to know why players can't take on an adversary. Is it because it's too strong? Too skilled? To scary? Whatever it is, we should be able to represent it in the rules somehow.
Let's imagine a ludicrous edge-case:
LM: "And behind the door you find... a fly!"
Player: "A giant fly?"
LM: "No, just an ordinary one."
Player: "I swat it and move on."
LM: "You can't swat it: it is the greatest fly ever, and you cannot overcome it."
Player: "Why not? What happens when I swat it?"
LM: "It doesn't matter; it is beyond your ability to defeat."
Player: "But it's just a fly! What's stopping me from swatting it?"
LM: "The fly is more powerful than you're capable of imagining."
Player: "How? What's it doing?"
LM: "It's flying around."
Player: "It's just a regular fly?"
LM: "Yes."
Player: "I grab it and squish it."
LM: "You can't."
Player: "Can I make an Athletics roll?"
LM: "No, you it's beyond you."
Player: "Can I attack it with my sword?"
LM: "No."
A stupid example, yes, but it shows how simply declaring something unbeatable without backing that up can fail. Use the stats to show us why the players will fail when they try to take it on, and always give them the option of taking on something unbeatable.
I will never need stats for a Balrog.
And it's not because I will narrate circles around my players like the above example.
But I DO run a really deadly game, and will not hesitate to kill characters. (Some others on this board have suggested, perhaps rightfully, that my XP awards are at the very low end.)
So why would I never need stats for a Balrog? Because if my players ever had to face one, I would bet a large sum of money that they would run.
Which is as it should be, as far as I'm concerned.
I mean, hell, the Fellowship ran, and the thing killed Gandalf. That's reason enough.
If I ever have characters that are that powerful, well, then I would have lost interest in the campaign a long time ago.
Re: What attribute level would a Balrog be?
Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:48 pm
by Robin Smallburrow
I have given The Razarac in my Harad desert guide Attribute Lvl 1 - it is of course a Balrog (diminished in stature due to time ( you guys shouldn't forget that things DECLINE in Middle-earth), but I also felt it still more powerful than the Cold Drake in TfW.
I am currently writing Adventure 3 of my campaign, Trouble At the White Palm Oasis (lets just say that The Razarac figures prominently!) The pcs need to find an ancient artifact, The Rod of Junast, in order to defeat the creature..... Stay tuned!
Robin S
Re: What attribute level would a Balrog be?
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:51 am
by Stormcrow
PaulButler wrote:So why would I never need stats for a Balrog? Because if my players ever had to face one, I would bet a large sum of money that they would run.
This is basically the correct answer. My example was not meant to suggest that everything should be given game stats. There are some things the game is simply not designed to handle, and rightly so. We shouldn't expect to see satisfying stats for them.
Re: What attribute level would a Balrog be?
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:46 am
by Angelalex242
Though it might be for meta game reasons.
"It's Durin's Bane."
"We can take him!"
"Is your name Gandalf? No? Then even if we could, it'd screw up continuity if we did. So let's get out of here!"
Re: What attribute level would a Balrog be?
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:50 am
by PaulButler
Stormcrow wrote:
My example was not meant to suggest that everything should be given game stats. There are some things the game is simply not designed to handle, and rightly so. We shouldn't expect to see satisfying stats for them.
Roger that. Spot on.
Re: What attribute level would a Balrog be?
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:17 am
by nazgul_2000
Thanks for all the answers to my original question. You all have excellent insights and valid points. For me, the lure of playing a Balrog is too great to not try to "stat" one. I'm leaning towards Attribute Level 9. I went back and looked at Beorn in one of the books, and he's AL 9. He seems to be to about the equivalent of a Balrog in terms of sheer strength - though admittedly I haven't read the Hobbit in years, it seems to me that he totally kicked butt at the Battle of Five Armies, about what you would expect a Balrog to do if one had been there fighting against the good guys. If I ever actually get around to doing this, I'll share my creation with you all! Thanks again. Mike
Re: What attribute level would a Balrog be?
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:46 am
by Angelalex242
Uhhhh.
No.
A Balrog would hand Beorn his ass. Remember, Durin's Bane is equal to and on par with Gandalf. Beorn is nowhere near the level of a Maia.
The list of Maia on Middle Earth in the 3rd age total 7. There's Sauron, Durin's Bane the Balrog, and the 5 Istari.
Re: What attribute level would a Balrog be?
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:17 am
by Glorelendil
Angelalex242 wrote:
The list of Maia on Middle Earth in the 3rd age total 7. There's Sauron, Durin's Bane the Balrog, and the 5 Istari.
And possibly Tom Bombadil.
Re: What attribute level would a Balrog be?
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:56 pm
by Stormcrow
Enterprise or star destroyer?
Yankees or Red Sox?!
Kirk or Picard?!?!
SPACES OR TABS?!?!?!
Re: What attribute level would a Balrog be?
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:19 pm
by Ferretz
Well, I had to do it. Here are some quick stats for the Balrog I cooked up.
The Balrog of Moria
Durin’s Bane
Attribute Level: 10
Endurance: 150
Hate: 20
Parry: 12
Armour:
8d
Skills:
Personality 6, Survival 4,
Movement 4, Custom 2, Perception 5, Vocation 5
Weapon Skills:
Fiery Blade 6, Whip of Flame 5
Special Abilities:
Denizen of the Dark, Dreadful Spells (Fiery Aura)*, Great Leap, Great Size, Hideous Toughness, Horrible Strength, Savage Assault, Strike Fear (TN20), Thick Hide, Thing of Terror (TN20)
*Fiery Aura: Reduce the Balrog’s Hate by one to inflict 10 points of Endurance damage to every Companion currently engaged in close combat with it.
-Eirik