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In several threads I have read now that Sauron (and among his servants especially the Nazgûl) is supposed to be weakened now. Is this compared to the level they had when they all wore their Rings or to another era within the Third Age?

Cheers
Tolwen

Everyone seems to be of the opinion that as of year 2951, when the Nazgul return to Dol Guldur they are in a weakened state as compared to where they will be at the time of the War of Ring. Which I can understand, however, it is my opinion that they have made them too weak as of 2951. On paper they seem to me to be no more powerful then normal mortal characters. Even their special abilities (Black Breath, etc.) seem a trifle underpowered to me.

I agree there does seem to be a general idea that Sauron and his servants will somehow become more physically powerful up to the War of the Ring.

The Nazgul aren't physically very powerful; their power comes from darkness, terror, and loneliness. The best ways to fight the Nazgul are light, fellowship, and song.

Let's imagine a party meets the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur in the wilderness at night. He is in Dark Undead form (which is really a misnomer; the Nazgul never died). In addition to his Attribute being doubled to 10 due to being a Denizen of the Dark, every character must make TN 15 fear tests or be unable to invoke attribute bonuses, and to be further affected by his Deadly Voice and become Weary; they must make TN 15 corruption tests or take Shadow and pass out; any piercing blows scored may shatter their weapon and cause damage if they fail a valor test; the Lieutenant can do an extra 5 points of damage per blow, and he can potentially hit twice in one round.

That's underpowered? I don't think so; I think that's overpowered compared to the Nazgul in the book. I think the Nazgul screeching at you as an attack is a movie-ism; the Nazgul used their wails to signal each other, and the fear was a side-effect. His Fear of Fire makes him lose only 1 of his 12 Hate points; this is a far cry from a man and three hobbits driving you into a raging flood with just torches (admittedly, there was a Noldo with them). His Denizen of the Dark lets him roll 3d+10 with his long sword! Much too good.

Overall, I think the write-ups of the Nazgul in Darkening are adequate, if a little skewed toward action-movie characters.

In a thread about Tolkien dragons I linked this blog post, about fighting 16 HP dragons in the Dungeon World rpg, but it seems even more appropriate for this thread: http://www.latorra.org/2012/05/15/a-16-hp-dragon/

Thanks for reminding me, Elfcrusher: the Lieutenant's got 60 freeking endurance points!!

At this point in time Sauron is probably just as strong (or nearly so) as he is during the War of the Ring. He has been recovering his strength for almost 3000 years; I'm not sure that the next 70-some years will make much of a difference.

The destruction of Smaug and re-occupation of Erebor certainly upset Sauron's plans. However, those feats had not been accomplished yet when he withdrew from Dol Guldur to return to Mordor. I can only speculate that, with the White Council moving against him, he was not confident enough of overcoming its forces with his existing resources and thought it a better strategy to rebuild his army in Mordor instead. If the Council had not acted then Thorin & Co. might have found a dragon that was awake and ready for them with Orc allies at hand (perhaps even one or more Nazgul).

Otaku-sempai wrote:At this point in time Sauron is probably just as strong (or nearly so) as he is during the War of the Ring. He has been recovering his strength for almost 3000 years; I'm not sure that the next 70-some years will make much of a difference.

The destruction of Smaug and re-occupation of Erebor certainly upset Sauron's plans. However, those feats had not been accomplished yet when he withdrew from Dol Guldur to return to Mordor. I can only speculate that, with the White Council moving against him, he was not confident enough of overcoming its forces with his existing resources and thought it a better strategy to rebuild his army in Mordor instead. If the Council had not acted then Thorin & Co. might have found a dragon that was awake and ready for them with Orc allies at hand (perhaps even one or more Nazgul).

Sauron was also driven out of Dol Guldur by the White Council less than a decade ago. While this might not be a gigantic setback for him, surely hindered some of his plans and cost him some resources.

Woodclaw wrote:Sauron was also driven out of Dol Guldur by the White Council less than a decade ago. While this might not be a gigantic setback for him, surely hindered some of his plans and cost him some resources.

Not really. He feigned fighting, and intentionally withdrew to Mordor. He planned it all along.

Woodclaw wrote:Sauron was also driven out of Dol Guldur by the White Council less than a decade ago. While this might not be a gigantic setback for him, surely hindered some of his plans and cost him some resources.

Yes. Except that Tolkien tells us that Sauron anticipated the actions of the White Council and was prepared to make a strategic retreat before the attack. Any forces he might have lost are ones that he had left behind intentionally as cannon-fodder and a distraction. He lost his chance to take the North by surprise but gained another 77 years to build up his armies to much higher levels.

Stormcrow wrote:Not really. He feigned fighting, and intentionally withdrew to Mordor. He planned it all along.

Yes, that was one of my points. The events of TA 2941 were no setback or defeat for him at all. He orchestrated his "defeat" carefully long in advance and as Otaku-sempai said, all those that fell victim to the White Council's attack were those he had earmarked to be sacrificed for this charade (these need not to have been aware of this of course...). You can bet he sacrificed no one that was important for his plans.

Back home in Mordor he then began to build up his war machine in earnest. Personally, he did not lose any power beyond options for the North (which proved to be important later).

Cheers
Tolwen