Beornings not very much "Tolkien-wise"

[Michebugio]

Hello everybody, this is my first post on Cubicle 7 about this great game!

Looking at the starting skills of the races, some odd choices by the devs came to my attention. While I understand that some of the playable ethnies are just named in books, so the developers had to create from scratch player options based on small hints somewhere in Tolkien literature, some are actually quite well descripted, like Beornings.

For instance, according to Gandalf, Beorn "does not eat them [the animals in his retinue]; neither does he hunt or eat wild animals". Yet ALL the Beornings start with 3 points in Hunting, which actually means a quite astonishing base-level skill for people who lived mostly off of cream and honey (as the books say). Hmm, doesn't sound right to me: I would put those 3 point in Explore as a house-rule, maybe.

But then: Hobbits with a starting cultural 1 point in Travel? Well, maybe a hobbit or two may have a knack for traveling, but ALL of them? Just strange. Maybe that 1 point should go to Inspire, as the hopefulness of hobbits tends to spread to his companions too (after all, they also add 1 point to the Company).

Going on: Elves starting without a single point on Courtesy? Well, maybe that would go: Mirkwood Elves are a warrior race and maybe they have lost some of their cousins' courtesy... but ALL of that? Hardly so. And not even 1 point on Explore and Travel? They're scouting the Mirkwood on a daily basis, after all.

And in the end: are the Dwarves really starting without a single point in Insight? What, are they the distrustful, suspicious race I was reading about in LOTR or not? Moreover, they have always been said to be the most difficult race to corrupt for the Enemy, as none of them has EVER fallen to Sauron, not even the dwarf kings who wielded the 7 rings made to be ruled by the One (though they made them more greedy). Yet we see Dwarves with the lowest starting Hope (the measure of resistance to the Shadow) than all the races. I know that it's all about game balancing (more Endurance = less Hope and vice-versa), but are we sure that we couldn't handle this better?

Are some of you tweaking the races to fit more in "Tolkien-wise" Middle Earth? Are you crafting House-Rules to keep game balance and yet get closer to the descriptions of the Professor?

Sorry for the bad english and... well, let's debate!

[Falenthal]

For instance, according to Gandalf, Beorn "does not eat them [the animals in his retinue]; neither does he hunt or eat wild animals". Yet ALL the Beornings start with 3 points in Hunting, which actually means a quite astonishing base-level skill for people who lived mostly off of cream and honey (as the books say). Hmm, doesn't sound right to me: I would put those 3 point in Explore as a house-rule, maybe.

But then: Hobbits with a starting cultural 1 point in Travel? Well, maybe a hobbit or two may have a knack for traveling, but ALL of them? Just strange. Maybe that 1 point should go to Inspire, as the hopefulness of hobbits tends to spread to his companions too (after all, they also add 1 point to the Company).

Going on: Elves starting without a single point on Courtesy? Well, maybe that would go: Mirkwood Elves are a warrior race and maybe they have lost some of their cousins' courtesy... but ALL of that? Hardly so. And not even 1 point on Explore and Travel? They're scouting the Mirkwood on a daily basis, after all.

And in the end: are the Dwarves really starting without a single point in Insight? What, are they the distrustful, suspicious race I was reading about in LOTR or not? Moreover, they have always been said to be the most difficult race to corrupt for the Enemy, as none of them has EVER fallen to Sauron, not even the dwarf kings who wielded the 7 rings made to be ruled by the One (though they made them more greedy). Yet we see Dwarves with the lowest starting Hope (the measure of resistance to the Shadow) than all the races. I know that it's all about game balancing (more Endurance = less Hope and vice-versa), but are we sure that we couldn't handle this better?

While I agree that not all of the starting points seem adequate for my own view of the races either, I have some ideas of my own why they're like this.

Beornings: Beorn is vegetarian, but that doesn't mean that his followers are. Besides, Hunting is also the skill used for tracking wargs, wolves or orcs, and that's something the Beornings do quite well. Also, it's the skill you use in case some knowledge about the fauna is needed, and Beornings have a deep knowledge of animals and their ways.

Hobbits: Most Hobbits don't leave their hometown in their entire lives, but a Hobbit that has come from the Shire to Rhovanion (probably even crossing Mirkwood to begin his adventures in Lake-Town or Dale!) needs to have, at least, 1 point in Travel.

Elves: I might agree with you here. I can only say that most Mirkwood elves are isolationists and don't like to meddle with other races a lot. Therefore they can be Corteous with other elves, but they lack the manners to be polite to men or dwarves or to know how to behave outside Thranduil's Halls. As for Travel, for the same reason exposed for Courtesy, I see them as knowing how to Travel across Mirkwood, but nothing else. There, the Mirkwood-Lore trait can help.

Dwarves: I don't see Insight like this. I see it more as the skill to "read" someone's mind, to perceive the feelings behind what they're telling you, a kind of empathy. Being plainly distrustful is not exactly the same to me. Just my view.
As for the Hope, well, I don't have a clear answer. I can only say that falling to the Shadow doesn't literarlly mean "becoming an evil minion of Sauron". Becoming greedy is a way of falling to the Shadow, even while you can still oppose Sauron. Killing a defenseless orc just for hate is falling to the Shadow; Thorin refusing to share his wealth with Bard or anyone else (even Bilbo) is falling to the Shadow, even though he would never share it with Sauron.

I think that you can tinker around with the points until you find a distribution that fits your views better, but also don't waste too much time on it. Numbers don't matter as much as traits and good roleplaying in this game.

[doctheweasel]

The other thing about Hobbits is that even if they have never left home before, their natural tendencies would make for a more pleasant journey.

[Beleg]

Regarding the Hope assigned to Dwarves, I think it might be based on the way Thorin ends up going a bit crazy towards the end. And thinking about the Hobbits, I know Bilbo always liked going for walk. I'm not entirely sure if the same can be said for all Hobbits, but I *think* that wakling was a fairly common past time

[Stormcrow]

Elves and courtesy:

Don't think of Peter Jackson's snooty, cultured elves. Tolkien's elves are generally light-hearted, taking delight in everything around them. The elves of Rivendell—high elves, mind you—make ridiculous jokes and sing ridiculous songs. The elves of Mirkwood will do the same, albeit in a less pure form, tempered with a greater need to take care. But most of the time we see wood-elves they're enjoying themselves: hunting, feasting, getting drunk.

Elven nobles likely have Courtesy, but the average elf probably has no need of it. I hope that when the Rivendell book comes out the authors don't confuse movie-elves and book-elves and make all them stuffy aristocrats.

[Beran]

Also, with the lack of an associated skill (ie survival) Hunting would be the skill used for gathering berries and wild fruits/vegetables for those Beorning that are vegetarins like their chief. It is hard to get an accurate view of cultures in a game that uses templates of skills and abilities. The best way, I think, of looking at it is the templates in TOR represent the average person in that culture. The Hobbits are bit different in that the template represents the average traveling Hobbit. A small portion of the Hobbit population in deed.

[Glorelendil]

Dwarves obviously should have at least two skill points in plate juggling.

[Angelalex242]

I think most cultures could stand with a few more base points. Which, as long as they're all raised evenly, is fine. It's just a higher starting point.

Maybe give your players 20 or 30 'starter' XP and let them build what they want out of it.

[Yusei]

I think most cultures could stand with a few more base points. [...]
Maybe give your players 20 or 30 'starter' XP and let them build what they want out of it.

I guess this depends on what you want from the game. From your posts, you seem to want an epic game, with characters having at least some skills at 6, so it makes sense that you would tweak the starting point. However, that means the characters will soon be stronger than most NPCs, including important one.

Personally, I like a weaker group better, because I think character growth makes a better story than killing dozens of dragons. It is just a matter of personal preference, and I'm not saying you should play differently, just that it might not be wise for everyone to give PCs a lot of power from the start.

[Yepesnopes]

I cannot say much more than what Falenthal has already said. I think he rises good comments about your points. Especially about what Hope and what falling to the Shadow means.