Hostile Playable Cultures - Good or Bad Idea?

[Ferretz]

Tolkien wrote some very nice books, and I'm sure he was a nice guy. However, it seems plenty of "this race is good" and "that race is evil" in the books. But I'm sure it was the normal attitude of the time he lived (I've read some articles and speculations around this.)

Didn't the description of the Horse-lords of Rohan book mention Dunlendings?

Eirik

[Otaku-sempai]

Tolkien wrote some very nice books, and I'm sure he was a nice guy. However, it seems plenty of "this race is good" and "that race is evil" in the books. But I'm sure it was the normal attitude of the time he lived (I've read some articles and speculations around this.)

Didn't the description of the Horse-lords of Rohan book mention Dunlendings?

Eirik

Tolkien admitted that even the Orcs were likely not inherently evil as individuals, but after being warped and corrupted by Morgoth and the later influence of Sauron it would be very difficult to redeem one.

Certainly there were Mannish peoples such as the Dunlendings that were hostile towards the Rohirrim and others but they often had legitimate grievances that were played upon by Saruman and the servants of Sauron. The Variags were likely the worst of these; the close proximity of Khand to Mordor would have brought them under the influence of Sauron very early and he would have quickly converted them into Morgoth-worshippers.

[Glorelendil]

The Variags were likely the worst of these; the close proximity of Khand to Mordor brought them under the influence of Morgoth very early and Sauron kept their Morgoth-worship alive.

Was that a typo or is my Simarillion lore woefully lacking?

[Otaku-sempai]

Was that a typo or is my Simarillion lore woefully lacking?

I see. I referenced Morgoth where it should have just been Sauron. I've re-editted my previous post for clarity. Admittedly, there is some conjecture involved. We only know that the Variags were Men by the context in which Tolkien placed them: "Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues." Khand is directly adjacent to Mordor and borders Near Harad; the Variags must have been turned to Morgoth-worship long ago. As far as I know, they are not referenced at all in The Silmarillion.

[Tolwen]

Certainly there were Mannish peoples such as the Dunlendings that were hostile towards the Rohirrim and others but they often had legitimate grievances that were played upon by Saruman and the servants of Sauron.

A very good and valid point. The animosity (sometimes outright hate) of the Dunlendings and their ancestors against the Dúnedain and their allies/friends was caused in the beginning by Númenórean hubris who judged these people as "dark" and "wild" on the basis of their alien language alone. Beside the fact that this is a quite questionable criterion in itself IMO, it also failed to recognize the kinship of these tongue(s) with that of the Second House of the Edain (the Haladin), whose language was quite different from that of the First and Third House (Bëorians and Hadorians - respectively). This latter linguistic issue is stressed by Tolkien as well.
And since these people were thus deemed wild und not trustworthy "Men of Darkness", the Númenóreans (long before the admitted "corruption" by Sauron began) had no problem with destroying the forests that were the home and territory of these people. Starting from this, a downward spiral of violence, counter-violence and hate emerged that continued until the time of the War of the Ring.
And the Rohirrim are no - even more so than the Dúnedain - pure "do-gooders". Their history with the Dunlendings is marked by racial prejudice and "ethnic cleansing" (to use a modern term) as well. They may be good friends and uncorrupted allies of the Dúnedain, but they also exhibit a certain predilection in the admiration of force/violence for the solution of problems. A certain lack of empathy towards such matters might be argued in this context.

Cheers
Tolwen

[Mim]

We only know that the Variags were Men by the context in which Tolkien placed them: "Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues." Khand is directly adjacent to Mordor and borders Near Harad; the Variags must have been turned to Morgoth-worship long ago. As far as I know, they are not referenced at all in The Silmarillion.

In addition (if you have a copy of UT), the Variags first fought the Wainriders & later joined them in alliance -- probably orchestrated by Sauron & his minions -- against the Gondorians.

[Mim]

A thoughtful answer Tolwen; & you address the heart of the issue between the Rohirrim & Dunlendings.

Helm Hammerhand's struggle against Freca & Wulf offers a great example of the problem facing an LM.

We can look at either side & see justifiable points. Helm & Freca both displayed arrogance (dare I say ) that contributed to their argument & Freca's murder, but we can read between the lines & note that perhaps Freca schemed against Helm & he grew aware of the intrigues? Note how he proclaimed Freca's men outlaws.

Then, the war & the Long Winter ensue, & the Corsairs & Easterlings support (directly or indirectly) Wulf's invasion. The Red Book of Westmarch clearly paints him as the aggressor, but is it because the Rohirrim contributed to the Hobbits' narrative & he only sought vengeance for his father (or his people's ouster from their lands)?

Good stuff

[Tolwen]

A thoughtful answer Tolwen; & you address the heart of the issue between the Rohirrim & Dunlendings [...]

Thanks for that

Indeed it is extremely highlighting and informative to read between the lines - and pay attention to small details that are often narrated only in a dependent clause or en passant. Since the main narrative is clearly biased towards a certain point of view (which is of course intended by Tolkien), these smaller bits of information are all the more fascinating (and important!), as they allow a glimpse "behind the scenes". Here both the Dúnedain and Rohirrim and their allies are shown as not so unearthly "good" and noble overall. It is especially this kind of information that gives us a little bit more objective view on Middle-earth than they main narratives alone allows.

Cheers
Tolwen