Body Attribute vs. Heart Attribute: a pugilist consideration

[doctheweasel]

Body also gives you your attribute bonus to hit, when you spend hope.

And this is true of all the attributes with regard to skills: when rolling skills, it doesn't matter how strong, smart, or resilient you are, unless you spend hope.

True, but there are an equal number of Common Skills for each attribute. Those rolls that fall outside of that — Weapon Skills, Valor, Wisdom, Protection — should be considered as "added value" for that attribute.


As for Body being added to Endurance, in most cases it seems like it already has been. The high Body cultures generally have higher base Endurance scores already.

Body is also used in Protection rolls, so that is where your "toughness" gets factored in.

[PipeSmoker]

This has been discussed in my group too.
We feel Body is not that much underpowered, but we feel it should anyhow matter with Endurance... and maybe with Parry too? I myself consider what used to be dexterity (in bad old times) a part of Body too. I am quite sure Body includes almost ALL that is physical.
So what about Total Endurance=Cultural Initial Endurance+[(Body+Heart)/2]?
This wouldn't bee too different from current Cultural assets, but a revision of Cultural Base Endurance values could be considered too, not a big effort in it.
What about Parry=(Body+Wits)/2?

Just throwing in my guesses (not tested), in any case I think the game runs balanced the way it is.
Could also be useful is someone wants to import the rules in a different setting... Lightsabers anyone?

[Angelalex242]

Realistically...

The 2 Body Hobbit and the 7 body Beorning do equal damage with a short sword UNLESS a T rune is rolled.
The 2 Body Hobbit and the 7 body Beorning have the same chance to hit UNLESS the REALLY REALLY finite resource of hope is spent on an attack roll.
And on protection rolls, that difference only matters if Hope is spent. Which...protection rolls ARE a really good time to spend hope, so it probably will matter on defense.

In the end, there's not much different between the Hobbit and the Beorning unless the Beorning gets lucky or spends hope on an attack roll, which is generally not a wise decision.

[Michebugio]

Well, don't get too far now: I think that the mechanic Hope expenditure = Attribute bonus is just fine, and we shouldn't create exceptions to that.

But let's just see how the "Body makes Endurance" house rule would change things, mathematically speaking. The current, average Endurance scores for each races are (at character creation):

Bardings 28 (average Hope: 14)
Beornings 29 (average Hope: 13)
Elves 25 (average Hope: 11)
Hobbits 22 (average Hope: 18)
Dwarves 31 (average Hope: 9)
Woodsmen 25 (average Hope: 15)

By using Body, they would change to:

Bardings 27
Beornings 30
Elves 27
Hobbits 19
Dwarves 34
Woodsmen 23

Dwarves of course benefit the most from the new rule, gaining 3 points; then the Elves (+2 points) and the Beornings (+1). On the other side, Bardings lose 1, Woodsmen 2 and Hobbits 3.
I would say that no damage is done to game balance regarding Bardings and Beornings, since it's a very slight change; and I would also say that Elves just needed a small boost, since they previously had the worst combination of Endurance and Hope. Finally, maybe we can accept that -2 to Woodsmen too, thanks to their defensive cultural advantage combined with high Hope, but this is debatable (as a side note, I actually don't see why Woodsmen have to be so frail and weak, I've always seen them as much similar to Beornings... AND they wield greataxes. Nevermind).
Too much disparity for Hobbits and Dwarves though: I would consider to lower Dwarves' Endurance by 4 and add 2 Hope, also because the 2 to 1 trade-off seems aligned to game balance mechanics (as I pointed out in another thread). As for the Hobbits, it's up to one's idea of the Small Folk: if you like them to be more frail (for example, in Rich H Resources) just leave them like that; if you would like them to be surprisingly resistant for their size, add 4 to Endurance and subtract 2 from Hope.

What else? Only one thing: now using advancement points to raise the Body attribute also raises the character Endurance. It does seem fair enough to me, because now your characters have the choice to raise their Endurance by 2 with 1 advancement point, or to raise their Damage by 1, or both by a lower amount (Endurance by 1 and Damage by 1 but only when scoring Tengwars) by increasing Body. All of this while Heart is still vital for a character's developement (Hope, healing rate and key skill checks like Travel and Battle).

[Woodclaw]

What else? Only one thing: now using advancement points to raise the Body attribute also raises the character Endurance. It does seem fair enough to me, because now your characters have the choice to raise their Endurance by 2 with 1 advancement point, or to raise their Damage by 1, or both by a lower amount (Endurance by 1 and Damage by 1 but only when scoring Tengwars) by increasing Body. All of this while Heart is still vital for a character's developement (Hope, healing rate and key skill checks like Travel and Battle).

Unless you have HRed it, there's no way to raise the basic attributes score in the game, only the favored ones by taking the Gifted Virtue.

[Michebugio]

Unless you have HRed it, there's no way to raise the basic attributes score in the game, only the favored ones by taking the Gifted Virtue.

Shame on me!

My mistake then... but that actually simplifies things, because then replacing Heart with Body when determining Endurance will just affect Endurance score at character creation, and nothing else. A change with less impact than I originally thought.

[Yusei]

The 2 Body Hobbit and the 7 body Beorning do equal damage with a short sword UNLESS a T rune is rolled.

Which happens quite often. About half the time if they have 3 dice, if I am not mistaken.

[Glorelendil]

The 2 Body Hobbit and the 7 body Beorning do equal damage with a short sword UNLESS a T rune is rolled.

Which happens quite often. About half the time if they have 3 dice, if I am not mistaken.

I just simmed that out. Hobbit "Witty Gentleman" (2/6/6) and Beorning "Errand-Rider" (7/5/2), each with Short Sword, sword skill of 3, no virtues or rewards or armor.

After pitting each of them 10,000 times [EDIT: in Forward stance] against an Orc Chieftan, the Hobbit won 10.2% of the time, the Beorning won 27.3% of the time.

EDIT: I also tried it with sword skill of 1, against 2 Snaga Trackers (the Chieftan was too tough with skill 1). Now the Beorning wins 60%, the Hobbit 55%. So the gap closes with fewer skill dice because of fewer tengwars.

[Michebugio]

Very interesting, Elfcrusher!

But the simulation would be way more significant if you pitted an Errand-Rider Beorning against a Child-of-Two-Folk Beorning: same Wits, same everything, just Body and Heart different scores. Who wins then? The most physically powerful, or the most iron-willed?

EDIT: of course, "pit one against the other" means who does better against the same opponent!

[Glorelendil]

Very interesting, Elfcrusher!

But the simulation would be way more significant if you pitted an Errand-Rider Beorning against a Child-of-Two-Folk Beorning: same Wits, same everything, just Body and Heart different scores. Who wins then? The most physically powerful, or the most iron-willed?

Doh, right! I forgot about cultural blessing.

Ok, two beornings, Errand-Rider and Child of Two Folk. No virtues, rewards, or armor. Short Sword, skill 3. Opponent: Wolf Leader

Forward Stance:
ER wins 75%
CotF wins 68%

Open Stance:
ER wins 70%
CotF wins 72%

Caveat: I haven't implemented any Hope expenditure yet. One of the next features will be to enable that.

By the way, you're welcome to experiment with this yourself. Follow the link in my .sig. It's still a prototype, and while I learn .css it's uglier than a hare-lipped orc, but it runs.