Weapon ranges way too short?

Adventure in the world of J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings. Learn more at our website: http://www.cubicle7.co.uk/our-games/the-one-ring/
Tolwen
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 6:32 pm

Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Tolwen » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:53 pm

Mim wrote:Tolwen adds a solid point about the ranges, especially from the Hundred Years War period. This is admittedly post-late Antiquity/early Medieval, the period(s) that match Middle-earth, however, IMHO, Tolwen is correct.
Thanks for that. It also leads me to another point. Beside real-world comparisons, we have to keep an eye on Tolkien's own sources of course, and this ties in quite well with the Hundred Years War. He tells us something about Númenórean archery:
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:Axes and spears and bows they [the Númenóreans] had, and shooting with bows on foot and on horseback was a chief sport and pastime of the Númenóreans. In later days, in the wars upon Middle-earth, it was the bows of the Númenóreans that were most greatly feared. "The Men of the Sea," it was said, "send before them a great cloud, as a rain turned to serpents, or a black hail tipped with steel;" and in those days the great cohorts of the King's Archers used bows made of hollow steel, with black-feathered arrows a full ell long from point to notch.
- UT.Description of the island of Númenor
Now, this (the part about the Númenórean's wars in Middle-earth) sounds exactly like what the English did in Hundred Years War: Deadly showers of arrows by great cohorts of archers that cripple or destroy the enemy before he comes even close to melee range. The mentioning of the extraordinary material (steel) of the bows and the very long arrows is telling and far ahead of real-world medieval capabilities.
The ell is a very variable measure, but mostly around 50 to 60 cm; 19.5 to 23.5 inches. The english ell (which Tolkien is not unlikely to have referred to) is 5/4 yd. or 45 inches (114 cm). In the real world, the surviving arrows from the best evidence, the Mary Rose, measure on average about 75 cm (29.5 inch) and about 81 cm (almost 32 inch) maximum.
When we consider the greater body height of the Númenóreans, such long arrows are likely and the corresponding bows would stand out tall beside an English Lonbow indeed.

This powerful archery would give them a great advantage in battles, outranging the native bows of Middle-earth by far.

Even if we allow for a decline in lore and technology after Númenor's downfall, the tradition of powerful war archery is very likely to have been presereved by the Dúnedain not only for tradition (which they adored), but also for its highly practical value in war. Considering this, bow technology comparable to the English Longbow is not any longer too advanced, but already a big step back from previous times - as far as the Dúnedain are concerned. Other people are probably less advanced of course (apart from the Noldor).

Cheers
Tolwen
Last edited by Tolwen on Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Visit Other Minds Magazine - an international magazine for role-playing in J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth.

Other Minds now also on Facebook!

DavetheLost
Posts: 490
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:08 pm

Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by DavetheLost » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:30 am

Current arrow shafts come at a standard length of 32 inches for the bare shaft, before it is cut to length and point and nock are fitted. Bow poundage of draw weight is measured at a standard of 28 inches draw. Many archers actually draw a bit less than 28 inches. Arrows, especially with broad heads are usually cut a couple of inches longer than the archer's draw. A slightly "too long" arrow is more stable in flight.

Given this I would think that the Numenoreans were using arrows that were an English ell in length. That is quite a substantial arrow.

As for the "bows of hollow steel" that has always had me puzzled. I know that it is possible to build bows of hollow PVC pipe (that wonderful plastic pipe so many houses are now plumbed with), but steel is a new one on me. Especially hollow steel. This suggests pipe or tubing of some sort. Steel pipe doesn't flex and spring back, it flexes. Bends a little and then creases unless you heat it and fill it with sand while bending. This is why there are so many elbows and bends in the pipe fitting racks. A hollow oval tube of steel made into a bow would flatten in the middle, then crease. Perhaps laminations of spring steel, like leaf springs would work? But I wouldn't describe that as "hollow". Steel just isn't a very good material to make bows out of, so obviously the ancient Numenoreans knew something we didn't. Granted modern bows have risers (the grip) made out of metal, usually aluminum for weight, and those can have openings cut into them, but again I wouldn't describe that as a "bow of hollow steel".

For what it's worth, I always pictured those black arrows shot from the Numenorean bows as being of steel as well. We have arrows made of aluminum tubing and also hollow carbon fibre tubes, so steel is perhaps not too far fetched as an arrow material if you have a heavy enough bow.

Woodclaw
Posts: 408
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:48 pm
Location: Como, Italia

Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Woodclaw » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:24 pm

DavetheLost wrote:As for the "bows of hollow steel" that has always had me puzzled. I know that it is possible to build bows of hollow PVC pipe (that wonderful plastic pipe so many houses are now plumbed with), but steel is a new one on me. Especially hollow steel. This suggests pipe or tubing of some sort. Steel pipe doesn't flex and spring back, it flexes. Bends a little and then creases unless you heat it and fill it with sand while bending. This is why there are so many elbows and bends in the pipe fitting racks. A hollow oval tube of steel made into a bow would flatten in the middle, then crease. Perhaps laminations of spring steel, like leaf springs would work? But I wouldn't describe that as "hollow". Steel just isn't a very good material to make bows out of, so obviously the ancient Numenoreans knew something we didn't. Granted modern bows have risers (the grip) made out of metal, usually aluminum for weight, and those can have openings cut into them, but again I wouldn't describe that as a "bow of hollow steel".

For what it's worth, I always pictured those black arrows shot from the Numenorean bows as being of steel as well. We have arrows made of aluminum tubing and also hollow carbon fibre tubes, so steel is perhaps not too far fetched as an arrow material if you have a heavy enough bow.
That "bow of hollow steel" bit always puzzled me as well, simply because it seem wildly out of place. I know that Numenoreas posseded knowledge far beyond those of of their descendants, but the whole concept of a hollow steel pipe used as a bow seemed so unlike to me that I couldn't get beyond it.
"What is the point of having free will if one cannot occasionally spit in the eye of destiny?" ("Gentleman" John Marcone)

Falenthal
Posts: 2272
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:46 am
Location: Girona (Spain)
Contact:

Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Falenthal » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:28 pm

I also don't know how to understand it, but I've always used the Composite Bows as Numenorean bows.
I gave them a range similar to that of a longbow and more damage. They aren't a piece of equipement available for purchase, of course. I treated them as a treasure, equal to finding a Sword of Gondolin.

Glorelendil
Posts: 5160
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:20 pm

Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Glorelendil » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:52 pm

Maybe it's just a poetic phrase, with a tenuous connection to a manufacturing technique poorly understood by the poet who coined it. (Sort of like the French word for "potato"...they're not literally apples of the earth.) Maybe "hollow steel" isn't steel, any more than "truesilver" is silver.

EDIT: Imagine a forging technique that injects air bubbles into the steel, making it look like swiss cheese, producing a very springy, pliant steel.

EDIT2: FOR feck'S SAKE YOU'RE OK WITH A FIRE-BREATHING DRAGON BUT GETTING PICKY OVER "HOLLOW STEEL"?!?!?!!?
The Munchkin Formerly Known as Elfcrusher
Journey Computer | Combat Simulator | Bestiary | Weapon Calculator

Woodclaw
Posts: 408
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:48 pm
Location: Como, Italia

Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Woodclaw » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:34 pm

Elfcrusher wrote:Maybe it's just a poetic phrase, with a tenuous connection to a manufacturing technique poorly understood by the poet who coined it. (Sort of like the French word for "potato"...they're not literally apples of the earth.) Maybe "hollow steel" isn't steel, any more than "truesilver" is silver.

EDIT: Imagine a forging technique that injects air bubbles into the steel, making it look like swiss cheese, producing a very springy, pliant steel.

EDIT2: FOR feck'S SAKE YOU'RE OK WITH A FIRE-BREATHING DRAGON BUT GETTING PICKY OVER "HOLLOW STEEL"?!?!?!!?
I never say I'm okay with fire-breathing dragons :?

Okay, being serious, what always seemed strange to is that many bits of the Middle-Earth are based on RL one way or another, either from the myths and legends of our world, or from actual history. I can track down where the imagery of a dragon came from, same with thing like the Bard's black arrow or the Dane of Durin.
The steel bow always seemed strange to me because I can't really picture the hows and whys of it.
"What is the point of having free will if one cannot occasionally spit in the eye of destiny?" ("Gentleman" John Marcone)

Glorelendil
Posts: 5160
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:20 pm

Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Glorelendil » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:36 pm

Maybe it just means "concave"?
The Munchkin Formerly Known as Elfcrusher
Journey Computer | Combat Simulator | Bestiary | Weapon Calculator

DavetheLost
Posts: 490
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:08 pm

Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by DavetheLost » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:37 pm

Yeah, go figure. A talking, flying, fire-breathing giant lizard is fine, but not a bow of hollow steel...

I always figured it was some sort of composite bow design, which could be poetically described as "hollow steel". That and Numenorean "magic" which can explain a lot in Middle Earth.

Tolwen
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 6:32 pm

Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Tolwen » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:23 am

It just occurred to me that we have a coincidence here. It might be only by chance, but interesting nonetheless. Please note that how Tolkien describes the Númenórean arrow-storm above with black arrows. Now, it might be that Bard's black arrow (who seems special and not "normal" in many ways) is such an ancient Númenórean arrow. It would make the special properties at least explainable (others exist of course as well).

Of course there is only the colour as a common marker here (which is far from being a strong one), though it could be used as a hook for the history and background of this special equipment (fluff-wise so to say).

Cheers
Tolwen
Visit Other Minds Magazine - an international magazine for role-playing in J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth.

Other Minds now also on Facebook!

DavetheLost
Posts: 490
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:08 pm

Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by DavetheLost » Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:47 am

Not a far fetched idea to me. The BlackArrow was after all a family heirloom in Bard's house and had been handed down for generations.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: d(sqrt(-1)) and 5 guests