Fell Speed & Snake Like Speed

[Woodclaw]

I wasn't thinking resources as much as...logic?

I'll be more extreme: if he can tap into a special ability and avoid five attacks simultaneously, then his reflexes are not "snake like" they're "photon like".

Then again, I guess you could say that in a single round the attacks don't come simultaneously.

In terms of narrative logic (which is the base of TOR combat) a character might be able to rush past one opponent and use him as a meat shield, which would justify multiple instances of snake like speed in my eyes.

[venger]

About Snake-Like speed, I agree about using it multiple times in a round. And It is a self limiting Ability due to the low amount of expendable Hate. If the players are rolling good it will be a short battle!

And I am thinking resource management, I would not use the Ability to thwart each and every attack.

Since the rules allow for the creature to choose to invoke it after the player rolls, I would probably opt to pick and choose which attacks would land, taking the normal Endurance hits up to a certain point, and Invoking Snake Like speed only on Piercing, and Extraordinary rolls (maybe even Greater if Endurance is getting low) to try and avoid those serious successes.

The players use a similar tactic when deciding after their roll whether to use Hope for only particular Successes and if spending the point will actually be successful before spending it.
Even if the Creature does invoke the Ability, if the player hasn't invoked a Hope point (And Battle bonuses) he may still do so to try and trump the Ability.

If a creature doesn't have this option of multiple use during a combat round, the fellowship would cut it down quickly and never even get the chance to spend even a portion of its Hate.
Maybe a creature could mix it up a round or two like this and be the challenge they are meant to be.

Thanks for your thoughts!

[Angelalex242]

Well...as for that, if players overcome Snake like speed with hope...

Then grin evilly, because there's always another monster with a full compliment of hate waiting around the next corner, but hope once used is (almost) forever lost. Monsters can and should be spendthrift with their hate, since they won't survive the encounter with the PCs. But PCs must hoard their hope in exchange.

[Glorelendil]

About Snake-Like speed, I agree about using it multiple times in a round. And It is a self limiting Ability due to the low amount of expendable Hate. If the players are rolling good it will be a short battle!

And I am thinking resource management, I would not use the Ability to thwart each and every attack.

Since the rules allow for the creature to choose to invoke it after the player rolls, I would probably opt to pick and choose which attacks would land, taking the normal Endurance hits up to a certain point, and Invoking Snake Like speed only on Piercing, and Extraordinary rolls (maybe even Greater if Endurance is getting low) to try and avoid those serious successes.

The players use a similar tactic when deciding after their roll whether to use Hope for only particular Successes and if spending the point will actually be successful before spending it.
Even if the Creature does invoke the Ability, if the player hasn't invoked a Hope point (And Battle bonuses) he may still do so to try and trump the Ability.

If a creature doesn't have this option of multiple use during a combat round, the fellowship would cut it down quickly and never even get the chance to spend even a portion of its Hate.
Maybe a creature could mix it up a round or two like this and be the challenge they are meant to be.

Thanks for your thoughts!

I wonder, though, about comparing Hate to Hope, for the simple reason that most adversaries are (from a gamist point of view) one-type NPCs and don't have to worry about conserving Hate over a lifetime.

In my sim I currently have creatures with Snake Like Speed using it any time it will let them dodge a blow. I'm playing around with tightening that restriction, so that they only use it...as you suggest...to avoid Great/Extraordinary successes and Pierces.

EDIT: Added "Venger's Rule" as an option. Beorning with axe and shield against Orc Chieftan, win rate increased by about 3% (51% to 54%) with the rule enabled. So I guess it depends on how mean you want to be to your players.

[DavetheLost]

I'd say the players don't get the attack. If they were able to, then it wouldn't take effect at the top of the round.

Also, since the flee comes at the top of the round the creature doesn't attack. It is too busy trying to flee instead.

[venger]

Elfcrusher-

In my sim I currently have creatures with Snake Like Speed using it any time it will let them dodge a blow. I'm playing around with tightening that restriction, so that they only use it...as you suggest...to avoid Great/Extraordinary successes and Pierces.

On that thought I would have the creatures use dependent on it's cunning, a lower minded creature might just spend Hate like it's going out of style while a savvy opponent would be conservative.

About your sim, I saw a mention about it somewhere, it sounds interesting.
Do you have any intent of making it into a combat management system for us LM's that use a laptop on gameday?
Or will it be a tool for LM's to run characters through a sim to derive probable outcomes?
Is it available for playing around with?

[Angelalex242]

Personally, I'd add an extra penalty if the monster uses Snake Like Speed and dodged a blow the hero has already spent hope on. Such an occurrence should be +1 shadow points, perhaps, or even the loss of an additional point of hope. Because in such a situation, the player did his best...and came up short.

[venger]

EDIT: Added "Venger's Rule" as an option. Beorning with axe and shield against Orc Chieftan, win rate increased by about 3% (51% to 54%) with the rule enabled. So I guess it depends on how mean you want to be to your players.

Imagine that I have my own "official" house rule! lol
I'm glad it's not completely out of the park regarding win-rate.