Do Men Know of the Valar?

[Rocmistro]

I'm attempting to properly role-play my character's motivations and experiences in a PBF TOR group we have.

My character is a Barding of Dale (though he grew up on Long Lake). As part of his background, he was banished from Dale and wandered in Wilderland for a period before he had an epiphany that awaked his fierce desire for justice and to live as a Knight-errant. (Wanderer Calling). He heard the voice of "water and waves crashing on rock in his mind, and a great voice calling him from ruin to service".

This was the voice of Ulmo, and my intent is to make it a recurring theme in my character's development, having grown up on and around water and Ulmo being one of the valar who moved throughout the water veins of Middle-earth even in to the 3rd age.

The question is, would he know that it's Ulmo? Or whatever name the men of that region might call him?

This is where I get my MERP facts confused with canon facts, as MERP seemed to have a pretty integrated acknowledgement of religion and divine awareness for the secondborn, I do not think that it was the correct interpretation.

So how about Tolkien-philes? Would a Barding know of the Valar?

Also...my character also has the "Old Lore" trait.

[Tolwen]

The question is, would he know that it's Ulmo? Or whatever name the men of that region might call him?

IMO you can always find a rationale why this specific individual has greater lore and insight than his peers and relatives.

But if you're asking about these people in general, their knowledge would be quite blurred at best IMO. What we as readers of Tolkien's books know, goes far beyond your average mannish inhabitant of Middle-earth. Only where the Eldar or Dúnedain had a lasting cultural impact and legacy, you can reasonably expect more of the "true" knowledge. Northern Rhovanion was never in the sphere of Gondor's cultural influence (not even at its height more than 1,500 years ago). Now it is a strange and far-off land in the south for the men of the Celduin area.

IIRC, even the Rohirrim with their close contact to the Dúnedain call Oromë Araw. Unfortunately Tolkien does not tell us anything more about their beliefs and knowledge in these matters. But overall, the Northmen are not depicted as being much skilled in such religious/philosophical details of the Dúnedain and Eldar.

IMO they might revere the Valar in the way of traditional pagan gods (the Norse/Germanic ones come to mind here) in the real world and with differing names of course.
Some info from Gondor could have drifted north, but probably in heavily distorted form and with only the barest basics (e.g. powerful entities with their respective spheres of "skill") and with other names. The deeper truth behind it (i.e. Eru as the only creator and the Valar as created beings) is probably far beyond their scope.

Cheers
Tolwen

[Rocmistro]

Tolwen:

Thanks for the well-thought response.

While I certainly appreciate you ratifying the use of my own creative license, I would rather approach the question from the standpoint of what he most likely would know. That seems to be the solution that suits me best. And, so, I think he would have very little knowledge or learning on the subject of divinity, or the Numenorean or Elven definitions and belief systems that went along with that.

I rather prefer the evolution of the "virtuous pagan", whose sensing of the divine puts him on a quest to search and find that which is holy. That will, hopefully, take him into the Elven belief system and lore on the subject (since there are Elves in his party).

I just wanted to make sure there was not something (Canonical) that sullied the story by declaring "oh, yes, men of the Celduin would absolutely know of the Valar"

[Tolwen]

I rather prefer the evolution of the "virtuous pagan", whose sensing of the divine puts him on a quest to search and find that which is holy. That will, hopefully, take him into the Elven belief system and lore on the subject (since there are Elves in his party).

IMO this is a good path, both from the story-telling angle, as well as the one of the world-builder.

One fine detail might be interesting here: The Dúnedain - and especially the Eldar - not only believe in this set of lore, but they know it to be right. The forefathers of the Dúnedain and the Eldar (a few of which who still stay in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age) have actually met and talked with these beings. Galadriel had intense contact with them, and Glorfindel had first-hand experience of their duties as guardians of Eru's will (his stay in Mandos). This extremely direct contact with the Valar (and Maiar) is living proof of this more philosophical (rather than religious) teaching. In religion, you believe in a certain set of beliefs, which does not need any "proof". The Eldar (and indirectly through them) the Dúnedain know about that. The only thing that is more far away and more "religious" is Eru. But if you follow the story of Andreth in the HoMe10, early Men even had direct contact with Eru in the beginning, and thus an even more direct contact to true divinity than the Eldar. Sadly, Melkor spoiled much of this.

Cheers
Tolwen

[farinal]

I wonder how the Red Book effected the Hobbits in Shire and Westmarch. They had an enourmous lore on their hands now

[James Harrison]

So I enjoyed reading this tread, not least because I've been wondering how much, or little, my woodsman would have known of the Valar. We settled on him having heard a little of them from the brown: ancient Gods from over the sea. I very much like the idea of using some cultural pagan names and inaccuracies for them when I next have a chance to talk about them (and no doubt will grimace at being put in line by Rathlyn, our elf, when he works out what I am going on about). Oh and I agree that the "Virtous Pagan" sounds like it will make an excellent story arc.

I was drawn out of thinking and into posting because I've just come across a quote that reminded me of this thread, an encouraging faith deceleration (by Desmond Tutu if you are interested):

"For us who are Christians, the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is proof positive that love is stronger than hate, that life is stronger than death, that light is stronger than darkness, that laughter and joy, and compassion and gentleness and truth, all these are so much stronger than their ghastly counterparts.”

It reminded me of the knowledge that Tolwen talked about; how the Eldar and the Dunidan know the Valar - it is not simply a belief. This knowledge is not so far different from Christianity; a religion based on a personal relationship with God (Jonny Cash's voice singing "Your own personal Jesus" is playing in my head). I think for a lot of Christians, certainly for me, faith is a mixture of knowing and believing. People do have experience of God, from dreams (the potentially vague end of the spectrum) to true miracles (seeing someone's stunted leg grow in response to prayer is less 'wishy washy' perhaps) - these experiences feed into knowing God... Belief is also part of this however, belief that dispite the state of the world God is good, belief that when you feel down the God you know cares for you does care for you, (etc.), belief in the innumerably many aspects of God you have not experienced or cannot know (Heaven?, Miracles?, Forgiveness of Sins).

And of course the Dunidains forefathers having personal experienced of the Valar is reminiscent of the Ressurection; a recorded event that changed history... which is where the quote clicked in my mind with the thread.

Anyway, I don't want to start a flame war or antagonise people - but I did want to put down some of the thoughts this topic sent whizzing though my head! I will leave you with a quote I like from the good professor, which may help illuminate some of my comparisums...

“We have come from God, and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Indeed only by myth-making, only by becoming 'sub-creator' and inventing stories, can Man aspire to the state of perfection that he knew before the Fall. Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil.”

God Bless and peace,
james

[Jon Hodgson]

I'd like to head off any discussion of direct comparisons of Middle-earth religious experience to that of real world religions.

With all due respect to all our members, regardless of faith or lack thereof, we will not be furthering that line of discussion on this forum. Thank you for your understanding.

[James Harrison]

Fair enough... Keeping in-line with my initial thoughts, but moving away from discussions of real world religions, I think the current Dunedain have differing views on the Valar - as the current generation have not personally had direct experience of the Valar it would be possible to play a Dunedain who believes that the ancient lore is but myth and legend, either as a character who hardens and, probably, ends up with a reasonably high shadow level ... or as one who slowly comes to lose there cynical outlook. You could also take an bleak outlook (reminiscent of Denathore perhaps) where you think the Valar have abandoned mankind.

Personally I prefer more hopeful characters, but it could certainly give a deep vain of character to an individual.