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Falenthal wrote:

Angelalex242 wrote: I've always thought that there should be a way of representing in game terms that the "superior" races (mainly noldor, but also dunedain) are "fading away" from Middle-Earth history and getting tired.

Then how do you keep every player from rolling one of these "superior" races? Require that you have to first accumulate a certain amount of XP on an "inferior" race?

Angelalex242 wrote:To be fair to the elves, most of their Noldor badasses pretty much sat on their butts during the war of the ring. In the case of Elrond and Galadriel, it was because they dare not risk Sauron finding out who's got the elven rings. In the case of Glorfindel...I dunno, maybe the dude got lazy. Or maybe Gandalf said no, because it was his idea to put Merry and Pippin in the party instead of Glorfindel and somebody likely as badass as he is.

During the War of the Ring, the remaining Eldar (like the Dwarves) had their own problems to contend with in the North. Besides safeguarding two of the Elven Rings, there were Lorien and Rivendell themselves to defend; and if they both fell, the Grey Havens. A group of Dunedain Rangers accompanied by Elrond's sons did seek out and assist Aragorn. That was enough.

Angelalex242 wrote:To be fair to the elves, most of their Noldor badasses pretty much sat on their butts during the war of the ring. In the case of Elrond and Galadriel, it was because they dare not risk Sauron finding out who's got the elven rings. In the case of Glorfindel...I dunno, maybe the dude got lazy. Or maybe Gandalf said no, because it was his idea to put Merry and Pippin in the party instead of Glorfindel and somebody likely as badass as he is.

Or maybe J.R.R. Tolkien realized that it's a better story if you don't just round up all the most powerful good guys and have a Marvel comics smackdown. That works fine for a couple paragraphs (e.g. in the Silmarillion) but if you want your story to have lasting appeal it's better to tell it around some everyday/normal/"weak" characters who overcome adversity and grow in the process. C.f. Luke Skywalker (and, for that matter, "The Hero with a Thousand Faces.")

Which the C7 folks seem to understand in designing an RPG based on Tolkien.

Elfcrusher wrote:

Falenthal wrote:

Angelalex242 wrote: I've always thought that there should be a way of representing in game terms that the "superior" races (mainly noldor, but also dunedain) are "fading away" from Middle-Earth history and getting tired.

Then how do you keep every player from rolling one of these "superior" races? Require that you have to first accumulate a certain amount of XP on an "inferior" race?

What is superior in numeric terms (stats, skills and such) can be compensated with other drawbacks. The problem (and the style) lies in finding out how to compensate them. It all depends on the setting, but in Middle-Earth we know that Noldor and Dúnedain are a diminishing race. Why? There lies the difficult to come by with something creative. Maybe they are superior, but the servants of Sauron look for them wherever they are and hunt them over the other races. Or you have to invent some game-mechanics that simulate a tendency to keep to themselves, not to intervine in the affairs of the world, to travel to the West, and things like that.

What I like from the idea of Angelalex is that they become a bit more "reliable" (higher normal stats), but less surprising (lesser favourite stats). In fact, we can say that a medium Noldo or Dúnedain is better than any other race, but with other races you can accomplish (if you're lucky enough) features that no Noldo or Dúnedain can (like going into Mordor with the One Ring and destroying it ).

It's just a thought. I don't think it's the way those races should be done, but I'd like to see something like that. The balance would'nt be in the numbers, but in the concept of the race, in some drawback that is more a concept than a numeric penalty.

Angelalex242 wrote:To be fair to the elves, most of their Noldor badasses pretty much sat on their butts during the war of the ring. In the case of Elrond and Galadriel, it was because they dare not risk Sauron finding out who's got the elven rings. In the case of Glorfindel...I dunno, maybe the dude got lazy. Or maybe Gandalf said no, because it was his idea to put Merry and Pippin in the party instead of Glorfindel and somebody likely as badass as he is.

Of course, Gandalf turned out to be right, cause it worked, so hey.

I always thought that Gandalf was one of those people that has plans within plans. Like many of the wise he foresaw the coming of a new age and that the Hobbits will have to play a role in it somehow, hence there was a need for them to be ready. Surely there where greater and wiser people around, but the Hobbits needed to realize that there was a big bad world out there and that they won't be protected forever.

Plus, one of the key point of the Fellowship's mission was secrecy. Adding a great lord of the Noldors to their numbers would have been like lighting a spotlight above their heads and asking for every servant of the Shadow to drop on them.

Nay.
To me higher "power level" for presumed superior races is a complete no go. That was completely wrong in MERP too.
Eldar and Dunnies could be superior in the sense that they could maybe benefit from some special rule and virtues, but story-wise they are because they can reach far higher achievements due to longer life, ancient cultural dedications and direct contact with the powers of Arda. Having them greater in numbers from creation is very D&Dish, in the worst meaning. I feel it'll be boorish and unbalancing and UNFAIR to have Glorfindel-like characters runnign around since creation.

Did you ever ask yourself why we got 6 dots for each common skill in the char sheet? Do you envision Galadriel as a 7(10)-7(10)-7(10) attributes or as having 6 dice in Awe, Insight and such? Same for Aragorn with Hunting and Inspire, Elrond with Healing, Gandalf with Lore... and don't forget traits. Isn't Galadriel Fair or Lordly?
I mean, when characters start to gain 4 ranks in their skills, which power level are they touching?

My 2 cents. I think 2 solid cents.

Giving certain races higher stats makes sense from a pure Tolkien-lore standpoint, but is a terrible idea game-wise. Powergamers wouldn't choose anything else, and non-Powergamers shouldn't care because they understand that game balance trumps slavish adherence to the source materials.

As for the argument that higher base stats is balanced by lowering favoured ratings, that's utter nonsense as a penalty. Hope points are one of the most precious resources in the game; how is it a penalty to shift 1/3 of the value of spending Hope to a permanent bonus?

That's like saying, "Sure, I earn millions, but on the downside I spend a fortune on accountants." Yeah, cry me a river.

Giving certain races higher stats makes sense from a pure Tolkien-lore standpoint

I really do not know why this should be true.
Only reason, maybe, would be 'cause we had years and years of rpgs on our shoulders, polluting our minds with stats and numbers and such... Imagine you read "The Silmarillion" and never played D&D... would you consider a men from ancient Beleriand stronger and smarter than war of the ring men? Why did they fell into corruption? What does Tolkien mean when he says that greater men once ruled?
Same reasoning can be made with the Eldars, that had time to learn and apply and grow... do they need for this greater starting stats? Sure, they'll be insane characters now... lots and lots of skills and virtues, the game already provides a way to depict ancient powerful beings.
If we intend to play Glorfindel-power level, we already got what mechanics we need. If we intend to play a noble blooded elf of sort hailing from Rivendell, next supplements could instead provide something useful and original without thwarting the beginning character asset.

Actually, D&D makes this sort of problem easy. Cause they have something called 'ECL Races' like Aasimar and Drow and Half Celestial and so on.

The difference between the Noldor Elf and the Mirkwood Elf is that the former's got a Half Celestial Template tacked on to it. The problem is that TOR has no compensating 'ECL adjustment' compensate for it.

Actually, D&D makes this sort of problem easy

I say D&D gave an unsatisfactory solution to the problems that itself created. Numbers, numbers, numbers.
ECL adjustment? The times I heard people complain about it...

In any case, my view is totally different, I just say we don't need any ATTEMPT at balance, this game is not engulfed by numbers, it already provides a wide spectrum of power level.
I can see, say, Noldor having their coolest cultural blessing and a starting template to match the existing ones... when your Noldo is gonna get Glorfindel-level you'll have all those dots filled and all those virtues/reward recorded on your sheet.