TOR: the Peter Jackson variant

[Ferretz]

Well, don't get me wrong. I like the fact that TOR is based on the books and not the movies. TOR is one adaptation, the movies are another. Both are enjoyable, in their different ways.
Not all TOR players are Tolkien purists (I'm certainly not), but most players I know like to have their moments of heroics for their characters. And let's face it, most players like to be able to kill orcs.

So, let's put it another way: I would think that the mighty elven warriors in the books would plow through goblins without much trouble. Not being able to kill more than one goblin in one round, regardless of how good you are at fighting, seems a bit odd to me. It also makes combat in TOR slow whenever the characters are outnumbered (which is in most fights).

These are my opinions, of course. And opinions differ.

Eirik

[LOTR_Nerd]

Well, don't get me wrong. I like the fact that TOR is based on the books and not the movies. TOR is one adaptation, the movies are another. Both are enjoyable, in their different ways.
Not all TOR players are Tolkien purists (I'm certainly not), but most players I know like to have their moments of heroics for their characters. And let's face it, most players like to be able to kill orcs.

So, let's put it another way: I would think that the mighty elven warriors in the books would plow through goblins without much trouble. Not being able to kill more than one goblin in one round, regardless of how good you are at fighting, seems a bit odd to me. It also makes combat in TOR slow whenever the characters are outnumbered (which is in most fights).

These are my opinions, of course. And opinions differ.

Eirik

As a student of History(I will have my BA by Christmas) and a guy who has read most of the lord of the rings mythos( Silmarillion,Hobbit,LOTR), I can attest that one goblin a round is about right if I remember the rules one round=1 minute that is incredibly good by medieval standards, do you know how long it take to kill someone with medieval weaponry for most people(People with training included).Also take into consideration most fight scenes in the books are about 5 min to hours in length(my guess),so one goblin every minute means in a Moria run you could kill hundreds of them in a running battle in theory at least.

[Ferretz]

Then again, a warrior who has trained to kill goblins and orc for a thousant years, wielding elegant and razor sharp weapons with an almost supernatural agility (the elven warrior example, again), should be able to do more, and do it quicker. A good swordsman can easily kill one that is not so good in less than one minute.

It all boils down to something I feel all rpgs should have. It should be possible for characters to try really difficult actions. The rules should not just say that it's impossible.

It could be easily solved with a few more Masteries, I think.

Eirik

[Yepesnopes]

Then again, a warrior who has trained to kill goblins and orc for a thousant years, wielding elegant and razor sharp weapons with an almost supernatural agility (the elven warrior example, again), should be able to do more, and do it quicker. A good swordsman can easily kill one that is not so good in less than one minute.
Eirik

In this game you can solve this easily by introducing "high rank PC" virtues and rewards instead of by changing core mechanics.

For example, you could introduce in your games a Virtue accessible to player characters with more than # amount of XP/Advancement points, which allows to, instead of performing a normal attack, kill all engaged opponents (engaged with the PC) of attribute level...3 or less.
This could need a battle or weapon skill check, could be only performed in forward stance...etc.

Just an idea.

Options are endless, really.

[Ferretz]

Yes, they're doing something similar in the other rpg we play, Edge of the Empire. Of course, in that game, you have "talent trees", but you can get really good "Signature Talents" after a lot of experience. In one of these, you spend two rounds, and kill every minion-level enemy (lowest of three tiers) in the fight. This costs two Destiny Points (kind of like Hope Points, only easier to come by). The player freely describes how his character does this.

I think the idea of "Elite Virtues" or something similar, could fit well into TOR.

Anyway, sorry for derailing the topic.

Eirik

[Dalriada]

Then again, a warrior who has trained to kill goblins and orc for a thousant years, wielding elegant and razor sharp weapons with an almost supernatural agility (the elven warrior example, again), should be able to do more, and do it quicker. A good swordsman can easily kill one that is not so good in less than one minute.

The descriptions of elves is not really stable in the Middle Earth.
In The hobbit for example, Elves from Rivendell are described more laughing and singing that training to kill gobelins.
On the other side, orcs and gobelins are probably training to kill whatever moves, it's kind of their hobby.

[Corvo]

Then again, a warrior who has trained to kill goblins and orc for a thousant years, wielding elegant and razor sharp weapons with an almost supernatural agility (the elven warrior example, again), should be able to do more, and do it quicker. A good swordsman can easily kill one that is not so good in less than one minute.

The descriptions of elves is not really stable in the Middle Earth.
In The hobbit for example, Elves from Rivendell are described more laughing and singing that training to kill gobelins.
On the other side, orcs and gobelins are probably training to kill whatever moves, it's kind of their hobby.

I was wondering "what type of guy do you become after you spend ages refining the art of killing?", and now I cannot cancel from my mind the noble visage of sgt. Barnes from Platoon. You know, the psycho one

[Ferretz]

Ok, let's just put one name out there: Glorfindel. How long would it take him to kill one goblin?

E.

[Woodclaw]

Ok, let's just put one name out there: Glorfindel. How long would it take him to kill one goblin?

E.

The same as everyone else, unless he has super-speed.

Seriously though, killing much easier and much harder than one might think and training can help you only up to a point. In general the focus on most combat techniques - at least in my experience - are:

• first, keep you safe;
• second, disable (not kill) the opponent as quickly as possible.

Straight kills in the chaos of a battle are a lot less common than one might think and (as far as I know) are mostly due to lucky shots or a warrior being wounded and not having his wound properly treated in time.
Hacking through dozen of enemies at high speed is something that doesn't exist outside of the realm of action movies, mostly because if I can get my blade to slash through an opponent armour and torso enough to kill him, there's a good chance that it will be stuck - or that I have put so much of my strength into that strike that I'm now unbalanced.
In my mind a great warrior - like Glorfindel - won't be able to hack enemies at super-speed, but he will be rather being able to survive unscattered a fight against impossible odds.

[Glorelendil]

Ok, let's just put one name out there: Glorfindel. How long would it take him to kill one goblin?

E.

I don't recall him (the LoTR Glorfindel, anyway) killing any goblins. Which is kind of the point: it's not a story (nor a game) about heroes wading through foes leaving carnage in their wake. You could try Robert E. Howard for that, perhaps.

Or take the one scene where our heroes are slaying foes by the score: the battle of Helm's Deep. Divide the time that battle lasted by the number of foes Gimli and Legolas slew. There you go...that's how long it takes them to kill a goblin.

But getting back to the topic at hand, we can add a new cultural virtue for elves, just for you: "To reflect your millennia of training, each turn you can take as many actions as your weapon skill (each of which can, of course, include multiple attacks.)"