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Elfcrusher wrote:

Yepesnopes wrote: P.S: How it would affect the game if instead of "every Extraordinary Success on an attack roll is a Piercing Strike dealing weapon damage + 1xdamage score" would be
"every Extraordinary Success on an attack roll may be turned into a Piercing Strike dealing weapon damage + 1xdamage score or the usual Weapon Damage + 2xDamage score"

Do you mean it's the player's choice?

Yes, player's and LM choice

Yepesnopes wrote:Yes, player's and LM choice

Giving the choice is an interesting option, it may add to the tactical depth of combat ("my enemy seems tired: instead of going for the kill, maybe I should just wear him out!").

Or you can apply it to specific situations, like tournaments and friendly duels, where lethal force should be avoided.

Or, finally, you may want to apply the house rule only to "lethal weapons" like swords, spears and axes, and keeping the RAW for other, less deadly weapons like maces, saps, or unarmed combat.

Another option:

since we are also trying to make the armour more appealing,
why don't we try to simply lower the Edge by 1? As for the Keen reward.

The axe is the weapon that gain the most out of it

Edit: by the way, I tried putting keen on the weapons on Elfcrusher*s simulator, and against an Orc Chieftain (ok, a though opponent) the axe got +4% victory rating above the spear...
Edit 2: apparently, the axe is 1% better than the sword to...

*always be His name blessed.

Corvo wrote:since we are also trying to make the armour more appealing,
why don't we try to simply lower the Edge by 1? As for the Keen reward.

The axe is the weapon that gain the most out of it

Actually I wasn't trying to make armor appealing, it was just a collateral effect of a new weapon balance system

But your rule does balance weapons from a strict statistical point of view. Using it, the new average chances to score a wound for each weapon category are:

Axes (Edge 10, TN 18): 11.30%
Swords (Edge 9, TN 16): 14.40%
Spears (Edge 8, TN 14): 14.24%

and if you ALSO apply Keen to each of them, they become:

Keen Axe (Edge 9, TN 18): 16.95%
Keen Sword (Edge 8, TN 16): 19.20%
Keen Spear (Edge 7, TN 14): 17.80%


They're fair values (though Axes are still on the worst side), but it also benefits more monsters than players, since it increases the wound chance regardless of weapon skill (which tends to be low for monsters in comparison to players, especially for experienced characters), so a horde of minions may become much more dangerous.

Michebugio, are you calculating 1d armour in these averages?
Because there are practically no monster with 1d armour: even the wildmen got 1d+3.
On the other hand, apparently you aren't calculating the higher armours (5d), and there are creatures with such values.

What I'm saying is that, once you add Keen to your weapon, the axe becomes very competitive (maybe the best weapon) from 3d armour and up. And 3d armour is fairly common: even Orc soldiers have 3d.

In my simulations, the keen axe is the best weapon against 3d or better armour, and the worst against 2d.
If keen can turn the table so quickly, maybe there is no need for an house-rule at all?

Lastly: your rule (that I like, because higher skill yields better crits) was tested with 3d skill. But once skill goes up, axe becomes progressively the better weapon, eclipsing all the other.

Just thinking out loud. Please forgive my curtness, my son just attacked me :p

Corvo wrote:Michebugio, are you calculating 1d armour in these averages?
Because there are practically no monster with 1d armour: even the wildmen got 1d+3.
On the other hand, apparently you aren't calculating the higher armours (5d), and there are creatures with such values.

What I'm saying is that, once you add Keen to your weapon, the axe becomes very competitive (maybe the best weapon) from 3d armour and up. And 3d armour is fairly common: even Orc soldiers have 3d.

Yep, all the scores are calculated for 1D armor, 2D, 3D and 4D an then I made the average based on all these values. I'm not considering 5D armour because it's a very rare instance, but I can put it into the calculations as well.

If you look at the values in my previous post, Keen Axe is actually not very competitive on average:

Michebugio wrote:Axes (Edge 10, TN 18): 11.30%
Swords (Edge 9, TN 16): 14.40%
Spears (Edge 8, TN 14): 14.24%

Moreover, analyzing the values of Keen weapons (without your rule) specifically against 3D armor, these are the results:

Keen Axe (Edge 10, TN 18) vs. 3D Armor: 10.19%
Keen Sword (Edge 9, TN 16) vs. 3D Armor: 11.46%
Keen Spear (Edge 8, TN 14) vs. 3D Armor: 10.17%

So Keen Axe is indeed more competitive against fairly good armor, but still far from being "the best weapon against 3d or better armour" as you say.

Corvo wrote:Lastly: your rule (that I like, because higher skill yields better crits) was tested with 3d skill. But once skill goes up, axe becomes progressively the better weapon, eclipsing all the other.

No no no, my rule was tested for all scores of weapon skill from 2 to 6. The percentages you see in my previous posts are the average values based on separate results for each weapon skill from 2 to 6, not just for 3d skill. The scores already take into account the skill progression, so the average is for the whole character's "history", let's say.

By the way, be careful about Elfcrusher's combat simulator results, because while it's a very accurate tool, it takes into account lots of other factors that may "pollute" the final results.

Corvo wrote:Please forgive my curtness, my son just attacked me :p

Hope you survived to read my answer ;P

Michebugio wrote: By the way, be careful about Elfcrusher's combat simulator results, because while it's a very accurate tool, it takes into account lots of other factors that may "pollute" the final results.

I prefer to think of it the other way around: be careful looking at a single factor in isolation, when what you should care about is winning fights.

Elfcrusher wrote:I prefer to think of it the other way around: be careful looking at a single factor in isolation, when what you should care about is winning fights.

Damn right, but we're just evaluating the chance to score wounds here, not discussing tactics. A Beorning's damage output is high, so he'll probably win more because of Endurance damage than by scoring a Piercing Strike; on the other hand, a Hobbit or a Woodman rely more on the chance to Wound their opponent, since their damage output is low.

Hence a weapon's chance to score a Piercing Strike will have a great influence on a Hobbit or Woodman's performance in your combat simulator, and much less on a Beorning. That's why I made the simulations in one of my previous posts with a Beorning and a Woodman: the results confirm what I've just said

Michebugio wrote:So I ran three simulations with the same Woodman using an axe, a sword and a spear against an Orc Guard (armor 2D+4). Results seem to support my thesis: the axe Woodman has a victory rating of 60%, the sword Woodman has 68% and the spear Woodman has 72%. And 12% difference in rating just because of two different weapons is A LOT, in my opinion.
I then tried the same with a Beorning and the results are similar, but less evident (I guess it's due to higher damage output of the Beorning over the Woodman): 82% for the axe Beorning, 84% for the sword Beorning and 88% for the spear Beorning.

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with your findings. Because axes, spears, and swords (the 1-H variety) have the same base damage and encumbrance, there really isn't anything else that could affect outcomes.

@Michebugio

Thank you for taking your time to answer to me so thoroughly.
I should check more accurately your numbers: as I said, I based my guesses on a combat simulator, non on the real mathematical chance to crit/bypass armour.

PS: I survived my son's ambush thanks to my Great Size skill.
My wife don't fared so well