Cultural Rewards attainable by another culture?

[Corvo]

IMHO I don't care if their ulterior motive is min-maxing as long as the story is good.

My exact thought. If one of my players has a great backstory, and to match it in terms of game stats he also min-maxes (voluntarily or not), I don't care, as long as his character isn't totally game-breaking...

Well, your initial post didn't really present it like that so I thought my query had merit.

Like RichH, I would advise caution here. Michebugio, you elsewhere wrote that the King's Blade was overpowered and felt... Wrong, gamewise. It detracted somehow from the other players enjoynment.
Overpowered combos can have the same problem.
Another problem is, say, the Barding archer feeling "robbed" by the elf having the Barding bow AND the elvish tricks combo.

That said, I allow a lot of rewards and virtues from other cultures, because all my Heroes are Bardings, so it's easier differentiate them. The guy with the Hound virtue? His mother was from Wuduseld.
But in my group there is no Woodman who can feel "cheated" by the bardings having access to "his own" virtues.
By the way: my players are the opposite of power-players. They are the first to ask me to "nerf" some combo they feel overpowered! :p

[Woodclaw]

One of my players came up with the same question a while ago and my basic answer was: no.

While it's true that I prefer to stick to the RAW when possible (i.e. it makes sense), in this case my opinions were mixed.
On one hand I think that the various people/cultures of the Middle-Earth possess secrets and crafts that they don't share willingly with others. Cultural Rewards are physical embodiement of this principle and so it makes sense for them to be reserved to honored members of each culture.
On the other hand I can see that there are pivoltal examples of heroes receiving unusual rewards from other cultures (e.g. Legolas Lorien bow).
Now the PCs are supposed to be unusual character that might be heroes worthy of a song one day and so both the above elements come into play.

The idea of linking the possibility of a other cultural reward to precent Fellowship phases makes sense, but rather than having the hero opening a Sanctuary I would much prefer to disclose this possibility to those who received a title. This would provide the LM more control over these elements and link the avaible rewards closer to the PCs' reputation.

[Otaku-sempai]

... What do you think the players' motivations are for this? Are they trying to minmax and game the system or do they have interesting story and character motivations that they want to explore?

From the Loremaaster's perspective, it would be great to be able to reward Adventurers who have proven themselves to be worthy allies and good friends to another culture (example: the gifts given to members of the Fellowship by Galadriel and Celeborn).

[Looping]

Based on the events reported in Tolkien's books (gifts from the Elves to the Fellowship of the Ring, e.g.) I would personally allow it, but only as justified by the story. In other words, I don't think player characters ought to be able to claim other cultures' cultural rewards when increasing their valor score. Those items should be given as gifts or rewards for good deeds (or bad deeds, depending on who the patron is, hehe!).

Additionally, I see those gifts as belonging to the character's standard equipment. In other words, these items do not have "plot immunity" as traditional cultural rewards do and they can be lost or destroyed like any other item (after all, the character did not spend any experience point on it).

In my opinion, this system is more logical because it places all special objects in a same category and it gives loremasters more latitude in attributing other magical and/or powerful objects such as Elven rope or Elven cloaks.

You'll always find players who want to abuse the system and acquire rewards based on game mechanics and advantages it gives their character, at the expense of the story. It is your prerogative as a loremaster to say no. I don't think you even have to justify it.

[Glorelendil]

Fingers crossed then that the Rivendell supplement and the, announced, magical treasures section within it addresses this for you.

Believe me they are crossed.

Kudos on the typing, then.

[Beran]

Fingers crossed then that the Rivendell supplement and the, announced, magical treasures section within it addresses this for you.

Believe me they are crossed.

Kudos on the typing, then.

Ha! Good one. I just hope that the items included in the Rivendell sourcebook are "new" and not ones already possessed by the main characters (ie Sting, Glamdring, Orcrist, etc.)

[windsurfjunkie]

I have been playing for over a year now, and my players love my campaign which I have modified to be more gritty and less abstract with regards to money, and rewards.
Here is my rewards rule:
When a character has accumulated enough experience and chosen to increase valour (IMO the equivalent of an increase in fighting spirit & style) through practice with a host culture, it promotes admiration from the leaders of the culture, and prompts the leaders to give a ‘prize item’ from the vaults, or the reworking of the character’s armour/weapon as a gift. Whether this is his own people or another culture, during the Fellowship phase, when he spends the time with the culture he has helped, the character will be given the reward. This compensation is in addition to any gold reward that was promised before the adventure, if this was the case. If the character receives a gold reward during the fellowship phase that was promised before the adventure, but does not spend time developing his fighting spirit and style (increase in Valour), then the leader of the culture will not offer the character a ‘cultural’ or ‘quality’ reward.
With any gold compensation, the character has several options: save the money; spend it on items that may help in future adventures like a warhorse, boat, pony, etc.; gift the gold back to the cultural leaders/community in order to increase standing among that people, etc..
When the character is given a cultural reward (it may be any cultural reward described in AB), it must be available in the storerooms or vaults of the leaders of the culture they are spending the fellowship phase in; finally, the character may choose to receive a quality reward to improve his own armour/weapons instead. A cultural reward is given with the discretion of the Loremaster, depending on the allowances of the character’s own culture and the current riches of the treasury of the culture he is spending the Fellowship in. For example, a Hobbit cannot choose to receive a Dalish longbow (Great Bow) reward. Also, if spending time in a prosperous or rich culture, rewards like Dwarf-made hauberk or helmet may be chosen for a human, as the dwarves crafted many suits and helmets for the mannish races of Middle earth. If the character is spending the Fellowship phase in a Frugal or Martial culture, then perhaps some of the cultural rewards will not be available in the storerooms or vaults of the leaders of that people. Another example for a reward is how Mannish heroes can learn to use a spear two-handed with an elven buckler (reward) - the Loremaster could make learning this skill a fellowship-phase task if spent in the Elven kingdom.

[Michebugio]

Thank you all for your contribution, guys. This is really one of the most prolific, polite and interesting RPG forum I've seen so far.

That said, I've read too many good ideas, so I'm still stuck on the decision!

Some considerations I've developed reading your answers:

1) "Open" rewards may lead to powerplaying: well, true in theory, while mostly false in practice. Browsing all possible combinations of items and cultures, I haven't been able to find any particularly effective combination, except only one: a Barding with the Virtue Fierce Shot holding a Woodmen's Sheperd's Bow, which can have a really painful damage output (personally I wouldn't allow it). Regarding King's Blade, well, it's obviously broken as it is, so I already provided to nerf it in my campaign. But that's it: I don't see any other game balance issue or minmaxing or "combos" in opening Rewards to all cultures.

2) Rewards help feel each Culture as more "unique": this is true indeed. "Open" rewards would feel a bit like a "Magic Market" where everybody gets what he wants, which is something I would avoid as a LM and also players may feel "cheated". But on the other side, the Virtues would still be unique.

3) Rewards attainable by all Cultures improve the variety of choices: more choices, more diversification between otherwise too similar characters. It's simple maths: choosing between 18 Rewards instead of just 3 leads to a greater variety, which may benefit some games (i.e. players with almost identical characters). Or it may lead to interesting side stories.

4) It's finally noteworthy to say that inter-cultural Rewards is a staple of Tolkien mythology, as many of you already pointed out. Ancient elven weapons found in Trolls' lairs, Mithril chainmails, Dwarven-forged equipment for Human Lords (King Bladorthin Spear is already a sort of inter-cultural Reward if you read the description!) and Elven gifts (cloaks, Lembas or magical lights): it's all Tolkien's stuff.


And by the way, what if your players decide to exchange their respective Rewards after their characters earned them, simply out of friendship, or to pay a debt? What if a character dies, and with his last breath he grants his Reward to a beloved Companion who fought so much by his side? These are rare but interesting situations, and personally I wouldn't stop them if they can benefit the Campaign fun and atmosphere.

[Rocmistro]

Michebugio:

I have a way of handling this that I believe satisfies the problem of power-players.

Part of the problem (in my opinion) lies in how loosely structured the Fellowship Phase/Patron thing is. I think if they tightened this up a little, you could have some great stuff.

So in my game, a player can open as many sanctuaries as they like, but they can only have 1 patron at a time. This patron is tied to a specific sanctuary, and in order to receive that patron's benefits, they must spend their fellowship phase (and thus their heroic undertaking) at that sanctuary and under that patron.

Patrons each have various requirements to be considered as such, usually some combination of valor, wisdom and/or standing, as well as possibly other things like song, or courtesy or lore or whatever.

Once a player has a Patron, they get the benefit of that Patron when they fellowship there. And one of the benefits of a Patron, is that they open up certain cultural rewards and cultural virtues to non-race members. So for example, having Radagast as a patron allows a player to select the Herbal Remedies Virtue or the Feathered Armor Reward.

[Robin Smallburrow]

As Rocmistro says, the key aspect here is really the Patron of that particular culture - the key questions are:

Who would give out such a reward? (ie what patron?) You need to consider this issue from the viewpoint of the giver, not the receiver.
Has the PC in question gained a Patron of said culture? If not then I don't see how I could allow it, even if the PC is friends with other individuals of that culture. For example, with the Elves of Mirkwood only Thranduil the Elven King could give out such a reward, even if the PC has Legolas as a bosom buddy!!

Rich H in his 'Additional Rules' supplement has excellent stuff on Patrons and Benefits which includes just these possibilities.

Robin S.